You raise some fascinating points. I’m in the uk and Lois Theroux is much regarded as one of our best journalists, he’s a very smart guy, and although parts of that film annoyed me, I think there was a purpose to the long pauses and repeated questions. I think he knew exactly what he was doing. Marty did not come across well in that film and I got the impressions he went through a stage of thinking of him self the oracle of anti Scientology nonevent. He tried to set up varies independent movements which didn’t become as big as he would of liked, I think that annoyed him greatly. I believe he is a narcissist and I’m cwetaibly not surprised by the recent chain of events regarding his situation.

“Your reply is very enlightening and helpful! Thank you.”

You are most welcome, Jglden!

“Indies would be those people such as: Marty, Dan Koon, Ron Miscavige Sr.? At least that’s my impression from the things I’ve heard them say in youtube clips and other writings, in the past few days.”

I wouldn’t venture to say if those individuals consider themselves as “Indies” or not. You can find recent YouTube videos where they are being interviewed and ascertain what they say about it.

“After reading it all, I concluded that ‘indies’ are still not deprogrammed.”

You know, I wouldn’t go so far as stating that they are “still not deprogrammed”. In the first place, I don’t think that “deprogramming” would be the most accurate word to use as it denotes a “thought reform” type of practice in itself, and thus, might be considered as a sort of “benign” re-conditioning which of course, is as wrong as what the cult does. Now is by “not deprogrammed” you meant, “They are still under the ‘Undue Influence’ of the cult”, then to THAT I can respond better. However, I don’t like to stereotype others due to their belief system, though I DO make that mistake more frequently than I would like to. But I am learning not to.

The mentality of “Indies” regarding Scientology and Hubbard greatly varies. There are those who still think that Hubbard was right about everything that he had ever written about, and that Scientology is “Man’s only route to spiritual salvation”. This group think that LRH was a genius incapable of being wrong, and that he had the welfare of all humans as his basic urge. But then you have those “Indies” who understand that LRH made many mistakes with many of his policies; that Scientology though workable, is not perfect nor infallible; that Hubbard as well as any human, had destructive traits in his personality; and they decided to ignore the bad, and emphasize the good in Scientology.

So the area is a grey one, and not a “black and white” one as to what exact beliefs do the “Indies” hold. The truth is, that it depends on many factors.

Personally, I don’t have an issue with what “Indies” practice and/or believe as long as it doesn’t harm anybody nor violates Human Rights. I very much believe in the “Freedom of Religion and Belief” and “Freedom of Thought and Expression” rights. I DO care however, about others being under the psychological pressure of “Undue Influence” and “Thought Reform” practices, and it is just to that, that I protest and attempt to do something about.

But as I mentioned in my previous reply to you, You can find most answers you seek by watching Chris Shelton’s videos. His ability at explaining Scientology to others is commendable. And he is honest, unbiased, and very professional about it. Really, all you need to know, you can see it on any one of his videos. You can also contact him. I am sure that he would be much glad to help you understand anything. Don’t just go and read every website that you stumble across, but go to the correct sources.

HBO’s “Going Clear” and Leah Remini’s “The Aftermath” would also be great accurate sources of information. So you have 3 very good sources to start with; those 2 and Chris Shelton’s. Then after you graduate from those, you have Tony Ortega’s “The Underground Bunker” and of course, the best blog in existence about the church, this blog.

I am glad of being of help, and I wish you an enlightened journey out of any destructive groups, 🙂

This youtube video just came out, regarding Marty’s work in My Scientology Movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imTKVxpCwC4

It may be of interest to some.

Your reply is very enlightening and helpful! Thank you. Ah, now I know what “indies” means. I’ve seen the term in a few comments here and there and couldn’t figure out what it meant, but now I know. Indies would be those people such as: Marty, Dan Koon, Ron Miscavige Sr.? At least that’s my impression from the things I’ve heard them say in youtube clips and other writings, in the past few days. I’ve only been learning about most of this Scientology stuff over the past week, but as a former cult member (International Churches of Christ) myself, I study them critically and don’t stop studying them until I feel that I understand them sufficiently. IMO, “indies” are people that are still not deprogrammed. I forget which post on Mike’s blog I was reading, but it had a link to something Dan Koon shared about RLH’s Super Power Run Down. I downloaded it and read it; and based off of RLH’s manic-like directions, I see the brainwashing effects it has. Dan Koon was explaining how it can be done on your own without being in the church still, to make you perform better (aka like a robot) at your job or task. After reading it all, I concluded that “indies” are still not deprogrammed.

“From what I’ve taken away from the film thus far, I think Theroux wasn’t taking Marty seriously or with adequate respect but I will watch the Youtube interview with Joe Rogan above.”

I think that Theroux was emotionally detached to it all, as any professional journalist should be. In my estimation, he wasn’t disrespect with Rathbun, and he did took him more seriously than Rathbun actually deserved.

I think that Theroux really wanted to UNDERSTAND Scientology and the mindset of ex-Scientologists, and thus, his journalism angle and approach was different than what was used in “Going Clear” and “The Aftermath”. I feel that he wanted to portray Scientology as it actually IS as opposed to just isolated accounts from ex members, and I don’t think that he actually planned on using Rathbun as an example of what Scientology is capable of doing with the mindset of its members. But as the filming progressed, it became obvious to him that Rathbun was STILL very much affected by his past involvement with the church, particularly, with the well known “Attack and harass” and self-righteous attitudes that many Scientologists have. It was kind of OBVIOUS that Rathbun STILL had not left Scientology, as he was very much still carrying its seed within him. All of that became obvious many months later, if you realize the 180 degree turn that Rathbun gave to his viewpoints and attitude regarding the church and the ex members.

There are a few high profile ex SO members like Mike, who even though were very much part of the “Attack and Harass” strategies of the church, they came clean after they left it, and made up for whatever wrong actions they had done, by widely and publicly exposing the abuses in spite of the unbelievable harassment that they suffered from the church for having done so. And that’s very commendable and only shows a great character and courage.

These individuals like Mike Rinder and all the others who were part of International Management in some way or another, started a whole new life; one where the missing important things in life that they never had while being members of this cult – like a real family, a real job where they were valued and respected, honest and loyal friends, etc – suddenly became a part of life again. Personally, I think that this happened, because they were very much willing to confront HEAD-ON what they had done wrong, and were willing to DO something about it. They didn’t take the “victim’s path”; they took a path leading to responsibility for our own actions regardless of what was done to us. But I don’t think that Rathbun fits into that category AT ALL, even though that he is the self-proclaimed “Anti-Scientology Warrior”.

Rathbun, IMHO, was never really sorry for what he had done. He never was humble enough and conscious enough about all the damage that he had caused to others. And one of the well known psychological manifestations of not having learned one’s life lessons, is becoming a VICTIM, which was what Rathbun showed that he was at the end of “My Scientology Movie”. And Theroux being the smart individual that he is, rapidly picked that up, and decided to use it in a “Let’s the audience decide about it” sort of way, which I can’t say is irresponsible of uncompassionate journalism, but a way of showing the REALITY of something. Theroux did what he was supposed to do.

“I actually have a couple burning questions that maybe you, Thetaclear or Mike could answer. In the documentary, about halfway through, when Marty is demonstrating Bull Bait and other mind control techniques to Theroux and the others, is Marty trying to demonstrate what he still practices and believes?”

I can’t answer that is any direction as I can’t possibly know what was on Rathbun’s mind at the time. But from my perspective – and this is only MY opinion – I think that Rathbun was STILL very much into the mindset of the Scientology practitioner that we call “Indies” (“Independent Scientologists”). At least, that was my perception from that scene, but I could be wrong, of course.

“The mind control scene, with Theroux screaming at the glass object confuses me. Was Marty trying to seriously teach him a technique that he could use to move the object with his mind? or was he trying to convey a hoax used within Scientology. Did Marty make up that technique or the CoS?”

No, that technique – called “Tone-40 on an object” – is meant to teach the student to develop what is call in Scientology, “Tone 40 Intention”. This mean the ability to “intend something to happen” without expecting any resistance back. In other words, one trust that with intention alone (because one allegedly learns not to doubt it, or to doubt our “power”), we can handle situations and people in life. The benefit of this, according to Hubbard, was having the ability to comfortably handle any “PC” (basically the person undergoing Scientology “therapy”) without having any back-off or fear or insecurity in doing so. And no, absolutely NOBODY make up any technique in Scientology. Only Hubbard was the “Source” of everything in Scientology, and he would not have allowed anyone else to contribute to his “techniques” in any way, shape or form. That’s one of the reasons it is a cult.

To get educated on what is Scientology all about, the best person for that is Chris Shelton. He has a website called, “Chris Shelton : Critical Thinker at Large”, and he also has a YouTube channel :

http://mncriticalthinking.com/author/skepticalseeker/

IMHO, there isn’t anyone better than him at explaining Scientology to those with no familiarity with it. And he is honest and unbiased about it. He also has a book called, “Scientology: A to Xenu: An Insider’s Guide to What Scientology is All About”. That’s an excellent book that you can get from Amazon.

“Thank you for any reply”

Always my pleasure, 🙂

I’ve been trying to get through the My Scientology Movie doc for the past couple days. I always fall asleep before it’s over. Ha. From what I’ve taken away from the film thus far, I think Theroux wasn’t taking Marty seriously or with adequate respect but I will watch the Youtube interview with Joe Rogan above.

I actually have a couple burning questions that maybe you, Thetaclear or Mike could answer. In the documentary, about half way through, when Marty is demonstrating Bull Bait and other mind control techniques to Theroux and the others, is Marty trying to demonstrate what he still practices and believes? The mind control scene, with Theroux screaming at the glass object confuses me. Was Marty trying to seriously teach him a technique that he could use to move the object with his mind? or was he trying to convey a hoax used within Scientology. Did Marty make up that technique or the CoS?
Thank you for any reply.

That was the feather which landed on the pile of precariously stacked items that then began to Tumble. And within three weeks I grabbed the kids and left.

So just wanted to let you know that your show has had positive influence even outside the reach of Scientology. Thanks!

Does Calvary Baptist church pay taxes on its properties? Same problem, different scale.

I once was acquainted with a guy and gal who were good friends with each other. At some point in the year I’d known them they had both been “saved.” At two times after that we had gotten together for a chat. It was clear that they were now motivated to save me. On the second get together I asked them why they seemed to be so persistent. They replied; “We like you, Richard, and we want you to be in Heaven with us.”

What are you going to do with that?