Stop being a squirrel, Jon

Richard:””Anyone can look at the subject as a whole and cherry pick the things that did NOT work. Saying NOTHING worked is a fundamentalist position and the only explanation is “brainwashed”.

Then riddle me this: Name two things that DID work AS ADVERTISED.

Anyone can look at the subject as a whole and cherry pick the things that did NOT work. Saying NOTHING worked is a fundamentalist position and the only explanation is “brainwashed”.

Richard, in fairness I should also note that there may well have been some additional benefit from getting together with like-minded people in an environment of supporting one anothers’ self improvement goals. There are studies that indicate, that people with involvements such as traditional church attendance do indeed experience various benefits.

But that has nothing to do with the “tech” or even the organization, really. I think that exes actually give away the credit to Hubbard and Scientology for that sort of “win,” when it was probably really something they created for themselves.

So you have the benefits of some talk therapy, and a support group or spiritual community. That’s probably all that really “works,” and as a wise ex taught, has more to do with the context (well-intentioned people getting together) than the content (Hubbard’s “work”).

“Wynski, I’m referring to old-school harassment and infiltration, like Hubbard originally directed. ”

It is F’ing simple Peacemaker! CONTACT THE PEOPLE OFFERING THE SERVICES AND FIND OUT!!!!!!!

Wynski, I’m referring to old-school harassment and infiltration, like Hubbard originally directed. They did that to indies like Mayo in the ’80s, in addition to the lawsuits that Scientology used for a while.

Does anyone really know if the indies still have trouble with that, or not?

Peacemaker, you’d like it confirmed?

Sure, go find all the copyright infringement suits filed by the church against US squirrel groups in the last 15 years. They will be in Federal Court if they exist.

Once you search you will know. OR, you could simply contact the US groups that have been advertising in the open that they deliver OT levels and ask about the suits they have been served with over the lat 15 years.

Richard, saying “Scientology works” is similarly flawed, and actually even more fallacious – the burden is on those making the extraordinary claims, to provide extraordinary proof. “Scientology doesn’t work” is actually the logical and evidentiary default, along with “there’s no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow,” “pigs don’t fly,” and so on.

Scientology is supposed to be science – “an exact science, and its application is on the order of, but simpler than, engineering” as Hubbard put it. And science is no more an individual matter, than gravity is, though infamously a few people back in the 1960s, apparently under the influence of drugs, did attempt to treat gravity as such.

There’s actually been enough science done to nail it down reasonable well, though. Most of Hubbard’s theories about things like engrams and the body sweating out toxins, have been proven wrong.

Basic auditing can provide some of the benefits of talk therapy, however – and that’s it, the entirety of the extent to which it “works,” other than to perhaps provide some placebo effects. Scientology may occasionally produce some illusory effects such as “exteriorization,” or, more accurately, disassociation, but that comes at the risk of unethical and dangerous tinkering with the same mechanisms that can result in psychosis, or psychotic breakdowns, which it does in fact “work” to produce in some cases.

And of course it has “worked” to provide Hubbard and now Miscavige lives of luxury, and the intoxication of power over followers.

Wynski: BINGO!, but “Double blind scientific method.” wouldn’t work. For the “proper” tech to be applied, it had to be given to the right person. Otherwise, you’re talking about every process being given to everyone and seeing if anything good came of it for ANY of the participants,no matter what their initial state was. I guess that’d work about the same as DM’s method: giving the WRONG process to everyone and not caring/noticing that EVERYONE was getting worse.

Peacemaker,

I’m not entirely sure what your intended message was, but I got one idea: That “the tech” was designed NOT to work when it was delivered properly. IMO, Ron never intended or *wanted* to produce any ‘clears’, as he wanted everyone to be his slaves, even the BTs freed from OT III – VIII. Those ‘elemental beings’ had value to him in Thelema once he had them under his control. ‘Course, he never did get them under his control and they made his body ‘stroke out’ quite literally.