Foolproof, funny how you completely ignore the main gist of my post, that of your illogic, and instead go for the minute portion of it where you can resort to ad hom attacks. When someone is losing in a discussion, and they have been spotted, and they have no leg to stand on and they know it, that is when as a last resort they throw out an ad hom attack on the person who has outted them. You responded as predicted.
Tubby’s comment about blowing up the central office came up in the “important quotes” section. You know, if we were to discuss that policy here, I’m SURE that OSA would mark up each remark, pro or con as a ‘vicious, anti-religious attack and add each to the 10,753 they’ve identified to date. Still, I wonder if some poor ex- or UTR will take that literally and start burning down DM’s grandiose ‘temples of excess’.
Scribe:’If you can’t graduate them with their gullibility appealed to and childlike innocence shining, graduate them in such a state of shock they’ll have nightmares if they contemplate “critical thinking.” ‘
Only if you discount his desire to make everybody his slaves, which he pretty much accomplished. He also had NO interest in delivering on his grandiose promises. ‘clear’ was a joke. I know, I went there and crashed like a leaded crystal balloon soon after. That was what got me cut loose from his out-of-control high-control cot — about the time that DM cut Tubby’s comm lines and things started their dead-spiral. Slowly at first, but it’s been picking up speed since DM’s obsession with Tom.
Hubbard wanted to make people his slaves? Oh! Don’t be ridiculous. And I’m not arguing about the time after DM took over, I headed for the hills as you did. But instead of nattering on and on why don’t you go and get your case sorted out – there’s plenty of good auditors in the field now.
The entry level of scientology up to and including clear addressed things like communication, problems and regrets as well as negative attitudes, emotions, sensations and pains. The mystical and occult nature of the OT levels was hidden and unknown. The lower levels produced wins/cognitions/realizations occasionally dramatic for many people.
The point being that most newbies and scientologists who don’t investigate scientology on the internet and are stuck on the lower levels might think they’re on a worthwhile Magical Mystery Tour.
I only got as far a few intro courses to start questioning things that didn’t add up so how can Cruise, Travolta or anyone who are not stupid not see this?
With sincere apologies to Antonio Carlos Jobim, Stan Getz and Astrid Gilberto:
The Guy From Gold Base
Small and tan and mean and ugly
The guy from Gold Base, Cali goes walking
And when he passes, the Sea Org lasses go, “Ugh”.
When he struts just like a Nazi
With Lou and Linda his personal Stasi
So when he passes, the SO masses go, “Ugh”.
Oh, how they watch him so sadly
How can they tell him they hate him?
Yes, they would leave Sea Org gladly
So each day when they muster at three
They plot and they plan to get free.
Small and tan and mean and ugly
The Guy from Gold Base Cali goes walking
And when he passes they smile, and plan to get free.
They want to be free…
They need to get free…
59 is OLD? but of course he *looks* far older than that, and that badly-done spray-tan doesn’t improve things, nor the badly photoshopped head-jobs his pics are getting.
Aqua, I’d love if if you could somehow include ‘badly spray-tanned’ or some such. And really: “UGLY”? As a guy, I’d not want to compete with him for the attention of the ladies, but what do I know? I’m just a guy, a guy who has never been called “cute” based solely on this body’s looks.
HCO Sec or Inquisitor hate check
on all personnel and all new personnel taken in.
We have some time since passed the point of achieving uniformly wankable proctology.
The only thing now is getting the proctology applied. If you can’t get the proctology applied then you can’t collect the money. It’s as simple as that. If you can get the proctology applied you can collect the money.
The only thing you can be upbraided for by me or my banker is “no cash.” Trouble spots occur only where there is “no cash.” Attacks from Xenu or Marcabians occur only where there is “no cash” or “bad checks.”
Therefore the road before Scientology is clear and its ultimate success is assured if the proctology is applied.
So it is the task of External and Org Sec Checkers, RTC, Case Handlers, Lawyers, PIs, COB, the MAA and all OSA staff members to get the correct proctology applied.
If you can’t graduate them with their gullibility appealed to and childlike innocence shining, graduate them in such a state of shock they’ll have nightmares if they contemplate “critical thinking.” Then experience will gradually bring about unquestioning compliance in them and they’ll know better than to go chasing lofty dreams when they should be donating.
maiden noun
maid·en | \ ˈmā-dᵊn
\
Definition of maiden
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : an unmarried girl or woman : maid
2 : a former Scottish beheading device resembling the guillotine (see guillotine sense 1)
3 : a horse that has never won a race
maiden adjective
Definition of maiden (Entry 2 of 2)
1a(1) : not married a maiden aunt
(2) : virgin
b of a female animal
(1) : never yet mated
(2) : never having borne young
2 : of, relating to, or befitting a maiden
3 : first, earliest a ship’s maiden voyage the maiden flight of a spacecraft
Nothing ‘maiden’ about the Fleecewinds. That dialog is hilarious. Well done RB.
The Breakwinds isn’t an exclusive place anymore though, is it? It’s more like a floating Ft. Harrison.
If you want to pony up a lot of cash to get far less than you could get on an actual cruise line, and if you want to battle regs the whole time you’re there, it’s pretty much available to anyone now isn’t it?
“Or like that 50 year old woman who they threw over blindfolded AND she didn’t know how to swim! Simply amazing, if that story is true!”
The way I heard it, I believe there is at least a grain of truth to the story. Tubby would have chalked her terror up to lack of confront. Personally, I would have had fears of hitting something floating in the water even though I’m a fairly capable swimmer who PREFERS swimming underwater . Try to tie my legs or arms together and you’ll get some resistance, though.
THAT WHOLE ‘OVERBOARDING” into a filthy harbor was as gross as it gets, and I doubt it achieved anything positive. Auditors who are scared to make any mistakes aren’t any better than they’d have been had they simply been corrected, as traumatic as that was, I’m sure. When I was auditing I definitely didn’t look forward to getting crammed on anything. Getting a cramming order from Tubby on one of his ‘cranky’ days would have been sufficient to put the fear of ‘G-D’ into anyone.
Ya know, now that you mention engine room detail – wasn’t DM a gofer for LRH? I’m thinking about that picture of him with a couple guys in the engine room working on the engine, and besides being obviously fake (who wears a silk shirt when you might get engine grease on it?), I’m wondering if it’s fake in another way. Specifically, is “working in the engine room” another job he’s never actually done?
In other words, was that picture of DM and the guys working in the engine room not only poorly done propaganda but actually literally false?
James, I don’t believe there is a job that DM has truthfully done. At most, I see him having a title but getting others to do the actual work and taking the blame when things go pear-shaped, DM taking the credit if something accidentally worked out right.
Well, that’s definitely true now, but i’m pretty sure that he was a runner for LRH, passing orders on. I’m blanking right now as to what the exact position is called, but it’s in the sea org. It was this position that enabled him to take over in the coup when LRH died; along with some judicious lying and fast-talk.
It still boggles my mind how staff can’t see that they are doing nothing but squeezing money from people.
These courses could be given to people at a low cost or no cost, the 50-60-70 year old course materials cost them virtually nothing. They could pack the courserooms to overflowing if the material was so great, and make a lot more than they are making from the empty chairs now. Auditing could be delivered at the same rate any therapy is delivered, perhaps $100-150 an hour instead of $800, and they’d have at least 8 times as many people doing it.
But, I know, Ron said…
I’m sure Ron has all the credit card machines humming at Target 2 now
LRH said in one of his talks, “Tell them the work was free.” Well maybe he worked for free but then he sold courses and auditing at ever increasing prices. It now costs more than standard visit to a psychologist. I know the argument, “you pay more cuz it works more” well that may or may not be true. Look at the products.
Cindy I am somewhat surprised at you – surely you would know what he was alluding to with the word “free” – that it was free of any vested interest or political influence. But you knew that, did you not?
(I won’t argue about the (current) “products” however as I am told by auditor friends of mine that Church cases need a lot of repair and programming to bring them back to battery. But even in the Church at least they are getting auditing, well, presumably.)
Foolproof, your last paragraph isn’t logical at all. YOu say how bad the current squirrelled auditing in the church is and that the products are lots o repair and programming to bring them back to battery, and then shrug and say, “But even in the Church at least they are getting auditing…” How is getting your case messed up with squirrelled processes and bad auditors who are GAT robots who have no recourse if the solution doesn’t lie in the “what do you do” drills or memorization drills, how is that a good thing or even an acceptable thing? I don’t believe in the false data that “any auditing is better than no auditing.” Not if that auditing causes you to have a psychotic break like Nancy Many did, and not if it caused a psychotic break like Lisa McPherson had. Also it is funny how you capitalized the first letter of the word “church.” That alone tells me you are a church troll because you think so highly that it is a church that you capitalize the word. I used to think that too. But I looked and didn’t listen as Ron says to do and by believing what I saw finally realized that it is a cult. And that is Cult with a capital “C”.
Oh and P.S. to last post. Don’t come back with the hackneyed saying, “Well Lisa McPherson and Nancy Maney had psychotic breaks because they were no case gain cases.” Yawn. That excuse doesn’t work on everything. They were caused to collapse by bad C/Sing and bad auditing. Period.
Here is a good story of a guy who left the SO and the church after doing his own Eval and Doubt formula using the real OIC board stats and his eyes on all the missions he did. His write up is one of the best I’ve ever seen. Click on this link to read it.
“.By mid-2012, I concluded that the decline of Scientology in terms of clears and OT’s made, training of auditors, dissemination and acceptance by the broad public, is being created carefully by Miscavige himself. I could see that he was serving other intentions and special interests to prevent people from moving up the Bridge to real OT.”
That is an excerpt of his story. Click on link for full story.
No, ok, I see your point (with the main premise here. Perhaps I should have qualified the statement with the probable fact that not all auditing delivered by the Church will be awry and the fact that at least they are still trying. And the courses will still be useful providing that supervisors don’t massacre their students and they sort of ignore references to “3 swing F/Ns” etc.
FP, you demonstrate the religious fanatic’s absolute faith in auditing – in the absence of any evidence other than placebo effect and confirmation bias, and apparently even if it may be delivered with questionable quality, almost as if it’s inherently magical. It’s like the foolish certainty of flat earth believers.
Dr. Sarge Gerbode’s research that resulted in TIR, demonstrated that auditing at most is an undistinguished, moderately effective talk therapy. That confirms the studies done in the early days of Dianetics and Scientology, that disproved the theory of engrams and found no particular lasting benefits – after which Hubbard presumably decided to steer clear of actual science, save for a brief attempt in the early 1980s when FASE, run by scientologists with scientific backgrounds, still failed to find validation for Hubbard’s theories.
I know you have the occasional anecdote about supposed “wins.” People who make pilgrimages to the shrines holding the relics of saints, or cast spells with chicken bones, have miraculous claims, too.
How do you explain 7 decades of failure in the real world? People should flock to Scientology if it actually did offer anything worthwhile, but instead the CofS has turned into a complete sham and is dying, and the indies can’t do much better than to capture an almost insignificant number of refugees from the “church.”
And yet you spend copious amounts of your time “researching” or rather googling under critical authors for “information” (Gerbode is one of them) trying to debunk Scientology and auditing. Gerbode altered Scientology or rather Dianetics, found “it didn’t work” and then makes out and calls it “Scientology” and then like you, criticises actually his alteration.
And anyway, if auditing doesn’t work what are you worried about and wasting your time writing usually massive length comments which no one bothers reading? I am in constant touch with auditors and their PCs who would laugh at your nonsense (if they would ever read it). No, I think you have some other agenda.
Well, FP, show us some real evidence the “tech” works. My concern is the dangers that both the organization and the “tech” pose.
The CofS ruins people financially and breaks up families, so I don’t know why you’d recommend them even if auditing did have some benefits.
There’s also a relatively high rate of people going PTS psychotic – close to half the scientologists I personally knew and did business with, including one murder-suicide, if you want anecdotes (and there’s a long string of many more in a couple of threads over at ESMB).
It’s a known problem with abreaction-type therapies that even fooled the pioneers of psychiatry and psychology at first, and it took decades of follow-up research to understand that the effects are illusory and the dangers real.
I realize that your little circle of grizzled veterans may have weeded out the potential PTS cases more or less by accident and by the wider world’s luck that indies practice on such a tiny number of people, but that doesn’t mean that the dangers don’t lurk – and I bet there are a still probably some cases of hushed-up and rationalized away bad outcomes in the history of dabbling outside the official church.
I get that you don’t understand things like science and statistics – that’s what makes your sort of amateurism and blind faith dangerous, like in an Appalachian snake-handling church.
Oh! My use of a capital “C” for Church is some sort of secret masonic esoteric test to determine if I am a Church troll or not? Phew! I suggest you read some of my posts and not depend on what amounts to almost superstition for your “data analysis”. Here, have a “church”! Ok now?
Marc, the failure of independent Scientology demonstrates that there’s no longer a market for Hubbard’s “tech” at any price, under any conditions. There have been attempts to extract the supposed “good” and offer it on better terms within the first couple of months of the introduction of Dianetics, many of them lead by some of the brightest and most talented people who had been co-authors and collaborators alongside Hubbard, and nothing has ever proven viable outside the hothouse of cynical manipulation and “hard sell” in the CofS.
Miscavige is doing what he does, because it’s the only thing left to do with the hand he was dealt – apy only lip service to the unworkable “tech,” keep people in with high-control policies like disconnection, and then squeeze them for the maximum amount of money possible using whatever approaches necessary.
Funny, indeed! And one I somehow missed, so quite happy for the rerun. I often wonder how RB continues with such a high accuracy of what makes up the idiocy of the SO. I occasionally thank the powers that be that I was never suckered into that mental morass!
FUNNY! There would be no one on post if staff could talk and think that freely. Sadly, their blinders are almost all-encompassing and they won’t even think of looking at any “forbidden” information until they’ve been hurt badly enough that they can’t help but look.
Cindy says
July 21, 2019 at 3:01 pmFoolproof, funny how you completely ignore the main gist of my post, that of your illogic, and instead go for the minute portion of it where you can resort to ad hom attacks. When someone is losing in a discussion, and they have been spotted, and they have no leg to stand on and they know it, that is when as a last resort they throw out an ad hom attack on the person who has outted them. You responded as predicted.
Foolproof says
July 22, 2019 at 11:00 pmWhat is this “ad hominem” you are talking about? I have looked through my posts to you and can’t find it.
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 10:46 amTubby’s comment about blowing up the central office came up in the “important quotes” section. You know, if we were to discuss that policy here, I’m SURE that OSA would mark up each remark, pro or con as a ‘vicious, anti-religious attack and add each to the 10,753 they’ve identified to date. Still, I wonder if some poor ex- or UTR will take that literally and start burning down DM’s grandiose ‘temples of excess’.
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 10:33 amScribe:’If you can’t graduate them with their gullibility appealed to and childlike innocence shining, graduate them in such a state of shock they’ll have nightmares if they contemplate “critical thinking.” ‘
NAILED it!.
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 10:22 amRobert,
you were so lucky that you could see that clearly so quickly.
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 10:20 amOOPs, DEAD spiral should have been death spiral, but it works nearly as well. LOVE auto-correct!
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 10:18 amFOOLproof: “free of any vested interest”
Only if you discount his desire to make everybody his slaves, which he pretty much accomplished. He also had NO interest in delivering on his grandiose promises. ‘clear’ was a joke. I know, I went there and crashed like a leaded crystal balloon soon after. That was what got me cut loose from his out-of-control high-control cot — about the time that DM cut Tubby’s comm lines and things started their dead-spiral. Slowly at first, but it’s been picking up speed since DM’s obsession with Tom.
Foolproof says
July 21, 2019 at 3:34 amHubbard wanted to make people his slaves? Oh! Don’t be ridiculous. And I’m not arguing about the time after DM took over, I headed for the hills as you did. But instead of nattering on and on why don’t you go and get your case sorted out – there’s plenty of good auditors in the field now.
Richard says
July 20, 2019 at 10:09 amThe entry level of scientology up to and including clear addressed things like communication, problems and regrets as well as negative attitudes, emotions, sensations and pains. The mystical and occult nature of the OT levels was hidden and unknown. The lower levels produced wins/cognitions/realizations occasionally dramatic for many people.
The point being that most newbies and scientologists who don’t investigate scientology on the internet and are stuck on the lower levels might think they’re on a worthwhile Magical Mystery Tour.
Foolproof says
July 21, 2019 at 3:36 amAs you’ve never done any of the OT levels should these newer people you mention take your advice on this aspect?
Robert King says
July 20, 2019 at 3:10 amI only got as far a few intro courses to start questioning things that didn’t add up so how can Cruise, Travolta or anyone who are not stupid not see this?
Aquamarine says
July 19, 2019 at 4:18 pmWith sincere apologies to Antonio Carlos Jobim, Stan Getz and Astrid Gilberto:
The Guy From Gold Base
Small and tan and mean and ugly
The guy from Gold Base, Cali goes walking
And when he passes, the Sea Org lasses go, “Ugh”.
When he struts just like a Nazi
With Lou and Linda his personal Stasi
So when he passes, the SO masses go, “Ugh”.
Oh, how they watch him so sadly
How can they tell him they hate him?
Yes, they would leave Sea Org gladly
So each day when they muster at three
They plot and they plan to get free.
Small and tan and mean and ugly
The Guy from Gold Base Cali goes walking
And when he passes they smile, and plan to get free.
They want to be free…
They need to get free…
Scribe says
July 19, 2019 at 5:26 pmShort and cruel and old and ugly
The Pope of Scam Miscavige goes stalking
And when he passes, the Sea Org masses go, “Fuck!”
Old Surfer Dude says
July 19, 2019 at 7:56 pmROTFLMFAO! You got skills!
Aquamarine says
July 19, 2019 at 10:43 pm“Short and cruel and old and ugly”…this, and the rest of your version is more dead on accurate, Scribe.
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 10:03 amAqua, Scribe was building on your excellent foundation. Both of you together could do it up proud, I believe.
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 10:51 am59 is OLD? but of course he *looks* far older than that, and that badly-done spray-tan doesn’t improve things, nor the badly photoshopped head-jobs his pics are getting.
Skyler says
July 19, 2019 at 6:46 pmHey Aqua! I think you may have a hit there.
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 10:28 amAqua, I’d love if if you could somehow include ‘badly spray-tanned’ or some such. And really: “UGLY”? As a guy, I’d not want to compete with him for the attention of the ladies, but what do I know? I’m just a guy, a guy who has never been called “cute” based solely on this body’s looks.
Scribe says
July 19, 2019 at 2:01 pmALL LEVELS
KEEPING SCIENTOLOGY WANKING
HCO Sec or Inquisitor hate check
on all personnel and all new personnel taken in.
We have some time since passed the point of achieving uniformly wankable proctology.
The only thing now is getting the proctology applied. If you can’t get the proctology applied then you can’t collect the money. It’s as simple as that. If you can get the proctology applied you can collect the money.
The only thing you can be upbraided for by me or my banker is “no cash.” Trouble spots occur only where there is “no cash.” Attacks from Xenu or Marcabians occur only where there is “no cash” or “bad checks.”
Therefore the road before Scientology is clear and its ultimate success is assured if the proctology is applied.
So it is the task of External and Org Sec Checkers, RTC, Case Handlers, Lawyers, PIs, COB, the MAA and all OSA staff members to get the correct proctology applied.
Aquamarine says
July 19, 2019 at 4:24 pm“The correct proctology”. Perfect! LOL, here!
Hey Scribe, you could do a revised, updated (and hilarious) KSW with this…hint, hint)
Scribe says
July 19, 2019 at 10:16 pmThanks Aqua. Here’s a cheerful little earful:
If you can’t graduate them with their gullibility appealed to and childlike innocence shining, graduate them in such a state of shock they’ll have nightmares if they contemplate “critical thinking.” Then experience will gradually bring about unquestioning compliance in them and they’ll know better than to go chasing lofty dreams when they should be donating.
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 10:31 am“Inquisitor hate check”… GREAT one, Scribe. I ALMOST skated past it reading some more usual routing terminal for it, it merged so smoothly.
Zee Moo says
July 19, 2019 at 10:55 ammaiden noun
maid·en | \ ˈmā-dᵊn
\
Definition of maiden
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : an unmarried girl or woman : maid
2 : a former Scottish beheading device resembling the guillotine (see guillotine sense 1)
3 : a horse that has never won a race
maiden adjective
Definition of maiden (Entry 2 of 2)
1a(1) : not married a maiden aunt
(2) : virgin
b of a female animal
(1) : never yet mated
(2) : never having borne young
2 : of, relating to, or befitting a maiden
3 : first, earliest a ship’s maiden voyage the maiden flight of a spacecraft
Nothing ‘maiden’ about the Fleecewinds. That dialog is hilarious. Well done RB.
MarcAnon says
July 19, 2019 at 12:56 pmThe Breakwinds isn’t an exclusive place anymore though, is it? It’s more like a floating Ft. Harrison.
If you want to pony up a lot of cash to get far less than you could get on an actual cruise line, and if you want to battle regs the whole time you’re there, it’s pretty much available to anyone now isn’t it?
Scribe says
July 19, 2019 at 1:57 pmCruise line – interesting choice of words.
Old Surfer Dude says
July 19, 2019 at 4:11 pmWhy?
Scribe says
July 19, 2019 at 9:54 amAlert! Alert! Alert!
All Hands on Deck
COB is about to board the ship. Brown Nose Protocol in full effect until further notice.
Non-compliance = Treason, immediate overboarding and engine room detail.
Old Surfer Dude says
July 19, 2019 at 12:45 pmOh, Hell! Overboarding is no big thing! I mean, yeah, it’s a long was down, but, you’ll probably survive. Just don’t hit the side of the ship.
Scribe says
July 19, 2019 at 1:59 pmNot when the ship is traveling at full throttle and you have to swim fast to catch up with it!
Old Surfer Dude says
July 19, 2019 at 4:16 pmI’m a Surfer so I think I can stay up with the rest of the swimmers. What’s the goal, Catalina Island?
Badafuco says
July 19, 2019 at 5:53 pmAnacapa Island is the closest to shore. Santa Cruz can get waves. (Grew up surfing the Rincon just north of Ventura)
Old Surfer Dude says
July 19, 2019 at 8:01 pmBeen there surfed that.
Aquamarine says
July 19, 2019 at 10:50 pmOr like that 50 year old woman who they threw over blindfolded AND she didn’t know how to swim! Simply amazing, if that story is true!
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 11:11 am“Or like that 50 year old woman who they threw over blindfolded AND she didn’t know how to swim! Simply amazing, if that story is true!”
The way I heard it, I believe there is at least a grain of truth to the story. Tubby would have chalked her terror up to lack of confront. Personally, I would have had fears of hitting something floating in the water even though I’m a fairly capable swimmer who PREFERS swimming underwater . Try to tie my legs or arms together and you’ll get some resistance, though.
THAT WHOLE ‘OVERBOARDING” into a filthy harbor was as gross as it gets, and I doubt it achieved anything positive. Auditors who are scared to make any mistakes aren’t any better than they’d have been had they simply been corrected, as traumatic as that was, I’m sure. When I was auditing I definitely didn’t look forward to getting crammed on anything. Getting a cramming order from Tubby on one of his ‘cranky’ days would have been sufficient to put the fear of ‘G-D’ into anyone.
James Rosso says
July 19, 2019 at 1:47 pmYa know, now that you mention engine room detail – wasn’t DM a gofer for LRH? I’m thinking about that picture of him with a couple guys in the engine room working on the engine, and besides being obviously fake (who wears a silk shirt when you might get engine grease on it?), I’m wondering if it’s fake in another way. Specifically, is “working in the engine room” another job he’s never actually done?
In other words, was that picture of DM and the guys working in the engine room not only poorly done propaganda but actually literally false?
Ann Davis says
July 19, 2019 at 4:52 pmJames yes I’ve seen that pic and I bet you are right! Lol
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 20, 2019 at 11:15 amJames, I don’t believe there is a job that DM has truthfully done. At most, I see him having a title but getting others to do the actual work and taking the blame when things go pear-shaped, DM taking the credit if something accidentally worked out right.
James Rosso says
July 20, 2019 at 6:34 pmWell, that’s definitely true now, but i’m pretty sure that he was a runner for LRH, passing orders on. I’m blanking right now as to what the exact position is called, but it’s in the sea org. It was this position that enabled him to take over in the coup when LRH died; along with some judicious lying and fast-talk.
MarcAnon says
July 19, 2019 at 9:24 amIt still boggles my mind how staff can’t see that they are doing nothing but squeezing money from people.
These courses could be given to people at a low cost or no cost, the 50-60-70 year old course materials cost them virtually nothing. They could pack the courserooms to overflowing if the material was so great, and make a lot more than they are making from the empty chairs now. Auditing could be delivered at the same rate any therapy is delivered, perhaps $100-150 an hour instead of $800, and they’d have at least 8 times as many people doing it.
But, I know, Ron said…
I’m sure Ron has all the credit card machines humming at Target 2 now
Cindy says
July 19, 2019 at 2:05 pmLRH said in one of his talks, “Tell them the work was free.” Well maybe he worked for free but then he sold courses and auditing at ever increasing prices. It now costs more than standard visit to a psychologist. I know the argument, “you pay more cuz it works more” well that may or may not be true. Look at the products.
Foolproof says
July 20, 2019 at 6:48 amCindy I am somewhat surprised at you – surely you would know what he was alluding to with the word “free” – that it was free of any vested interest or political influence. But you knew that, did you not?
(I won’t argue about the (current) “products” however as I am told by auditor friends of mine that Church cases need a lot of repair and programming to bring them back to battery. But even in the Church at least they are getting auditing, well, presumably.)
Cindy says
July 20, 2019 at 12:58 pmFoolproof, your last paragraph isn’t logical at all. YOu say how bad the current squirrelled auditing in the church is and that the products are lots o repair and programming to bring them back to battery, and then shrug and say, “But even in the Church at least they are getting auditing…” How is getting your case messed up with squirrelled processes and bad auditors who are GAT robots who have no recourse if the solution doesn’t lie in the “what do you do” drills or memorization drills, how is that a good thing or even an acceptable thing? I don’t believe in the false data that “any auditing is better than no auditing.” Not if that auditing causes you to have a psychotic break like Nancy Many did, and not if it caused a psychotic break like Lisa McPherson had. Also it is funny how you capitalized the first letter of the word “church.” That alone tells me you are a church troll because you think so highly that it is a church that you capitalize the word. I used to think that too. But I looked and didn’t listen as Ron says to do and by believing what I saw finally realized that it is a cult. And that is Cult with a capital “C”.
Cindy says
July 20, 2019 at 1:04 pmOh and P.S. to last post. Don’t come back with the hackneyed saying, “Well Lisa McPherson and Nancy Maney had psychotic breaks because they were no case gain cases.” Yawn. That excuse doesn’t work on everything. They were caused to collapse by bad C/Sing and bad auditing. Period.
Here is a good story of a guy who left the SO and the church after doing his own Eval and Doubt formula using the real OIC board stats and his eyes on all the missions he did. His write up is one of the best I’ve ever seen. Click on this link to read it.
http://scnil.org/english/nir-lahav-my-purpose/
“.By mid-2012, I concluded that the decline of Scientology in terms of clears and OT’s made, training of auditors, dissemination and acceptance by the broad public, is being created carefully by Miscavige himself. I could see that he was serving other intentions and special interests to prevent people from moving up the Bridge to real OT.”
That is an excerpt of his story. Click on link for full story.
Foolproof says
July 21, 2019 at 3:41 amNo, ok, I see your point (with the main premise here. Perhaps I should have qualified the statement with the probable fact that not all auditing delivered by the Church will be awry and the fact that at least they are still trying. And the courses will still be useful providing that supervisors don’t massacre their students and they sort of ignore references to “3 swing F/Ns” etc.
PeaceMaker says
July 22, 2019 at 12:28 amFP, you demonstrate the religious fanatic’s absolute faith in auditing – in the absence of any evidence other than placebo effect and confirmation bias, and apparently even if it may be delivered with questionable quality, almost as if it’s inherently magical. It’s like the foolish certainty of flat earth believers.
Dr. Sarge Gerbode’s research that resulted in TIR, demonstrated that auditing at most is an undistinguished, moderately effective talk therapy. That confirms the studies done in the early days of Dianetics and Scientology, that disproved the theory of engrams and found no particular lasting benefits – after which Hubbard presumably decided to steer clear of actual science, save for a brief attempt in the early 1980s when FASE, run by scientologists with scientific backgrounds, still failed to find validation for Hubbard’s theories.
I know you have the occasional anecdote about supposed “wins.” People who make pilgrimages to the shrines holding the relics of saints, or cast spells with chicken bones, have miraculous claims, too.
How do you explain 7 decades of failure in the real world? People should flock to Scientology if it actually did offer anything worthwhile, but instead the CofS has turned into a complete sham and is dying, and the indies can’t do much better than to capture an almost insignificant number of refugees from the “church.”
Foolproof says
July 22, 2019 at 10:54 pmAnd yet you spend copious amounts of your time “researching” or rather googling under critical authors for “information” (Gerbode is one of them) trying to debunk Scientology and auditing. Gerbode altered Scientology or rather Dianetics, found “it didn’t work” and then makes out and calls it “Scientology” and then like you, criticises actually his alteration.
And anyway, if auditing doesn’t work what are you worried about and wasting your time writing usually massive length comments which no one bothers reading? I am in constant touch with auditors and their PCs who would laugh at your nonsense (if they would ever read it). No, I think you have some other agenda.
PeaceMaker says
July 29, 2019 at 9:43 amWell, FP, show us some real evidence the “tech” works. My concern is the dangers that both the organization and the “tech” pose.
The CofS ruins people financially and breaks up families, so I don’t know why you’d recommend them even if auditing did have some benefits.
There’s also a relatively high rate of people going PTS psychotic – close to half the scientologists I personally knew and did business with, including one murder-suicide, if you want anecdotes (and there’s a long string of many more in a couple of threads over at ESMB).
It’s a known problem with abreaction-type therapies that even fooled the pioneers of psychiatry and psychology at first, and it took decades of follow-up research to understand that the effects are illusory and the dangers real.
I realize that your little circle of grizzled veterans may have weeded out the potential PTS cases more or less by accident and by the wider world’s luck that indies practice on such a tiny number of people, but that doesn’t mean that the dangers don’t lurk – and I bet there are a still probably some cases of hushed-up and rationalized away bad outcomes in the history of dabbling outside the official church.
I get that you don’t understand things like science and statistics – that’s what makes your sort of amateurism and blind faith dangerous, like in an Appalachian snake-handling church.
Foolproof says
July 21, 2019 at 3:46 amOh! My use of a capital “C” for Church is some sort of secret masonic esoteric test to determine if I am a Church troll or not? Phew! I suggest you read some of my posts and not depend on what amounts to almost superstition for your “data analysis”. Here, have a “church”! Ok now?
PeaceMaker says
July 20, 2019 at 10:29 pmMarc, the failure of independent Scientology demonstrates that there’s no longer a market for Hubbard’s “tech” at any price, under any conditions. There have been attempts to extract the supposed “good” and offer it on better terms within the first couple of months of the introduction of Dianetics, many of them lead by some of the brightest and most talented people who had been co-authors and collaborators alongside Hubbard, and nothing has ever proven viable outside the hothouse of cynical manipulation and “hard sell” in the CofS.
Miscavige is doing what he does, because it’s the only thing left to do with the hand he was dealt – apy only lip service to the unworkable “tech,” keep people in with high-control policies like disconnection, and then squeeze them for the maximum amount of money possible using whatever approaches necessary.
Scribe says
July 19, 2019 at 9:20 amBrown Nose Alert: COB’s coming!
Old Surfer Dude says
July 19, 2019 at 12:47 pmIs this a full blown Brown Nose Alert, or, just practice?
Scribe says
July 19, 2019 at 2:00 pmA full one replete with shit eating grin.
Old Surfer Dude says
July 19, 2019 at 4:19 pmGosh, I love shit eating grins. It makes me happy.
Peter says
July 19, 2019 at 8:20 amFunny, indeed! And one I somehow missed, so quite happy for the rerun. I often wonder how RB continues with such a high accuracy of what makes up the idiocy of the SO. I occasionally thank the powers that be that I was never suckered into that mental morass!
Old Surfer Dude says
July 19, 2019 at 4:21 pmLucky you, Peter.
jere lull ( 38 years recovering) says
July 19, 2019 at 6:43 amFUNNY! There would be no one on post if staff could talk and think that freely. Sadly, their blinders are almost all-encompassing and they won’t even think of looking at any “forbidden” information until they’ve been hurt badly enough that they can’t help but look.