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Thank you Foolproof. I understand what you mean and I know that it is hard to get fine tuned meanings across in writing here. It certainly is for me anyway, since writing is not my strong suit and can be quite a challenge.

There is another top FSM who was big and made a ton of money and then now you never hear his name at all again. Barry Klein. Remember him? I haven’t heard of him in decades. Is he UTR or out?

Michael Phillips used to be a big-wig FSM in WUS. I haven’t seen mention of him anywhere. And, of course, Barry Shereshevsky’s name should be in big print, but I didn’t notice him either. Too bad about Jim Kalergis. He’s got some old friends who are still in (most of those I mentioned in my earlier post). Although he’s also got friends who are out. Perhaps he’ll come back around to seeing what is. I hope so.

Well, as I have said to many people before you, you are entitled to your opinion and guesses. Give me a shout when you locate the Holy Grail. I will be the first to congratulate you.

The “people” who have “seen and know of the file” are probably the same people who have “seen” Nessie.

It never ceases to make me scratch my head how even though you are outside the constrictions of the church, you continue to believe that every word of LRH was true. But I am not going to waste my time getting into that with you. Go on believing that because he said there were 15 OT levels above OT VIII that there MUST be. And do you believe he was NOT married to Sara Northrup? He SAID he wasn’t? Or that Alexis was not his daughter? He SAID she wasn’t?

I would hazard a good guess I think here and say that DM has them in a locked bank vault somewhere and/or Broeker has done the same thing (if he was wise), with at least a copy of them, although I read that because Broeker was digging up potatoes in his garden DM’s PIs became interested in that (as a possible “location” for them) – ha! All this is on the net somewhere.

Has it ever occurred to you that you and Marty were sent off on a wild goose chase after Broeker (and the materials) and DM had the materials already? I don’t know Broeker’s full story on how he left (which you will do) but I cannot see DM letting him leave the buildings without handing over that stuff.

Basically Mike you are saying that we shouldn’t take LRH’s word for this. People have seen and know of the file. In my opinion and from the data I have read, the materials in the file are somewhere – they would not have been thrown away.

Thanks also for being polite and genuine in your comment.

I am not going to address each point, I simply don’t have the time. If you can send me this 1969 HCOB (I am not familiar with it) I would appreciate it. You can simply click on the “Contact Me” button on the website.

As for all else, I can sum up the simplicity of this in my estimation.

It doesnt matter whether what LRH said about further OT levels is true or untrue. If they existed or they didn’t, in note form or otherwise.

They do not exist in the physical universe. Not inside the church nor outside. And based on the evidence after nearly 30 years since Hubbard’s death, they never will be.

One way to look at it is that the incomplete work of LRH is never to be completed. He has not come back to turn his notes into reality. He didnt leave instructions on what was to happen after his death. A lot of loose ends were left dangling — this being perhaps the one that fixates scientologists more than anything. That is simply reality. Nothing you or I or anyone else can do to change it.

The Holy Grail of scientology — the 15 OT Levels beyond OT VIII — are the Loch Ness or the Yeti monster. Never been seen by anyone, but there are still those that obsess over them, believing they must be true and they will keep searching for them. But in this case, they are not a mythical monster but a mythical promise of happiness/eternity. Far more alluring and far more desirable. And thus a lot harder to let go of, or ignore.

Just observe the obvious.

Reply to Pepper’s comments above: As to my comments about training and people still being in, what I meant was more on the lines of “depending on their training” rather than just the fact of their being trained. I know so-called “Class VIIIs” who are the biggest squirrels going so I didn’t quite mean what you thought I meant, or rather I didn’t express myself properly or clearly enough, and I don’t think I am doing so now either and am somewhat struggling here to get over my message – ha! But what I could say here is that anyone still in and toeing the party line must have something awry with their training and, ironically enough re Super Power above, the inability to hold a position in space and also not see that what is going on is squirrel in the Ethics, Tech and Admin areas. Something like that is what I meant. I am not so dogmatic as you perhaps you think I am or rather as came over from my statements, or I am trying not to be anyway! It is and would be a generality to state that because of their training they would be out of the Church – there are many other factors involved. I think I was lumping all of the other factors under the word “training”.

Okey dokey, no I’m fine Mike don’t worry – I’m not the ARCXey type – ha! (Thank you for being polite though.)

Firstly the Super Power thing. if you read the quote from LRH he does not say that Super Power is an alternative route to the original Power (processes etc.) It is something that a Dianetic Clear can do but Superpower as a set of processes are nothing to do with Power as processes, although of course the results may be similar.It was your use of the word “alternative” that I had not come across and I had somewhat misconstrued. But that is not a big deal and I suppose “parallel” (for Dianetic Clears) could also be taken for “alternative”. My dub in there then. But saying that I do not see how this datum about Super Power’s release could be taken to prove I think your implied point here that because LRH said that (and that Super Power was not released until 2013), might mean that other statements of his are false or did not transpire as stated. I cannot see that if LRH states in 1978 that the OT Levels above VII really add on the time that completing “New OTVIII” on Freewinds in a couple of weeks is plausible and most of that time is spent having sec checks anyway. The LRH statement is “Now when we get to band six, get ready for a long haul. It won’t happen in a minute.” and “The higher the level, the longer the time – because one is handling a higher band of potential gain.” and he mentions how long approximately it takes for the previous levels and it is not a couple of weeks either. So there is a simple and straightforward discrepancy here and I am surprised that people have not noticed this – it is staring one in the face if you compare the data.

As to the “original” OTVIII HCOB – one of the (original) OTVIII bulletins (I don’t know if there are more) is dated 1st October 1969 and without revealing more here on an open forum I think if you ask nearly all of the auditors (that have been out for some time) that you will know in the field they will have a copy of it. The starting words of the title is “Why Thetans…” How and exactly when it came out i.e. “liberated” is unknown to me but it was sometime in the early 1980s I believe. I read it in the late 1980s. I am somewhat surprised that you do not know or have heard of this 1969 original HCOB as it has been “floating around” for decades. If you read it you will see straight away that it is an LRH HCOB, it is not like the silly other version of “OTVIII” about Jesus being this and that and the Pre-OT “spontaneously combusting” if he gets it all wrong and LRH coming back as a political figure etc. – and that some fools still natter about on ESMB. This bogus version written by some idiot I read and scoffed at and rejected straight away as did everyone else I knew. There is another squirrel version floating about as well which had believe it or not “Handbook for Preclears” as the first part and then some processes from COHA (which would be “better”), but now we are getting really daft (no, saying that the Jesus version was far more daft). That Jesus version is a complete red herring. If you read the original HCOB of 1969 you will see straight away I believe that that technology would go a long way to “resolving amnesia on the whole track”.

As to Broeker, no I know that he was not entrusted to carry on LRH’s technical hat, but I was only talking about his possession of the LRH notes on the OT levels above VII which LRH mentions many times in many HCOBs and LRH EDs and people I know who have actually seen the file and others, from internet conversations who have also reported on this. Broeker not being there at LRH’s death would have nothing to do with his possession (or not) of these notes – I don’t think LRH would have been clutching the notes to his breast and passing it on to his chosen technical successor at the moment of his death. (Sorry if that sounds sarcastic, I don’t mean it to be – I am just explaining my point here.) I will try and dig the story out about Broeker and send it on. It involves Annie as well. I think Dan Koon may also have been involved or at least know of the scene, so you can ask him, but as I say I will try and dig out the conversation)(s) I read, which seemed pretty bona fide (and I am not daft – well, hopefully not – ha!).

“Informed” on this scene I am not, but this scene is one still surrounded in mystery with conflicting reports and I (and many others I know) am/are trying to resolve the conflicting reports on this. I bow (and indeed deeply) to your and Marty’s experiences and being there but there are contrary data here – LRH states that the OT Levels exist and others have seen and know of the file and of course we also have the “old” OT Levels of 4,5,6 and 7 released and being delivered before 1984 or so which can be added to the equation as well (in fact Flag were still delivering these in the 1980s despite the new Grade Chart). But you are saying these levels don’t exist, but this is primarily based on you and Marty not recovering them from Broeker, which doesn’t really prove any point. And I would never assume that “discussions on ESMB” take precedence over your knowledge of that scene. (The reports were just posted on ESMB as I recall, other people’s opinions on ESMB are neither here nor there.) But there are discrepancies in this whole scene based on what I or rather LRH states as I mention above.

I hope I have expressed myself better than what I originally did on this.