Very well said.

Dude — way too much significance for me. Sorry. You’re right, I dont have time for this. Though you are certainly welcome to have your say, you are always polite and seem sincere. Sorry I asked. I thought it was a simple question.

Mike –

I appreciate that you don’t have time for this. I just want to try to clarify my position.

I know the tech works. The VFP of the whole thing is the individual, his first Dynamic as the operational center of all his Dynamics. If that VFP doesn’t exist anymore, then no amount of management is likely to “work.”

So yes, you/one can indeed say or think that the “admin tech” or “management system” doesn’t work, that it is a scam, and perhaps infer that one scam begets another, and so say that the auditing tech side doesn’t work either, by association. But I think that saying the management system doesn’t work may be the wrong target, the wrong approach, or a moot point, or whatever. If the VFP isn’t there, then you could have Jack Welch or Jeffrey Immelt and an entire management team drawing hundreds of millions a year, apply Sigma Six, or any other standard you/one chooses, and still not get a result. I have in the past thrown a hammer (far) away because I hit my thumb with it, and right now, I think it could well take Welch and Immelt both, and a ‘special ops team,’ just to unravel the catastrophe the church has become.

Both the auditing and the management sides clearly did work at some point, or the church would not have gotten worldwide, and I would not be sitting here saying that in fact all the data and tech are the most important thing in the world. Though not the only important thing. There are ethics to consider, like the other things in the world which are also important and which support Scn, like, for example, families, friends, electricity, food, and such(!). These work together. The church members seem to have lost sight of this almost entirely now, and to lose sight of the mutual support of admin scales is to lose sight of their personal ethics and their Dynamics.

To me, besides my personal gains, Scn is a matter of observation and logic, and I do not have a problem with it at all. Others do. Some, for example, apparently read “Axioms of Scientology” as “Axioms of Life” – and I can see how that would give them problems in addition to not being able to read. What I’m proposing is that the ethics tech – not the organizational ethics but the individual and personal ethics tech – may be the reason for which the VFP of the church somehow got dropped out. To me personal ethics seems to be the valuable and literally “final” product of all of Scientology, and I hold that it should be developed on a gradient along with auditing and training. A fully developed, fully rational, fully concordant with the rest of the world, set of personal ethics should be what one has after doing all the auditing and training. Saying this does not give anything away to the current church management, because if it did implement personal ethics development, likely the only thing you could hear inside the current “church” would be the echo of city traffic.

You and I and many others are on the same planet, but apparently in different locations and obviously with widely differing personal experiences. And we are operating on different admin scales – not different major goals necessarily, but certainly on different plans and programs. I trust the ideal scenes we envision are distinctly similar.

Espiritu –

“As far as I noticed, the issue of the existence of fraud was never ruled upon.”

Correct.

It would be too expensive for them to appeal it and I am sure the judge knew that when he made his judgment.

Well, if that’s the same Tim Edwards that used to work at Celebrity Center, he’s a real slimeball. He sold me two months of accommodations, paid in advance, that I didn’t need and it wasn’t my highest priority. I could have stayed in a friend’s house for a lot cheaper if I had intended to do services at AOLA. And even when I did stay there, he tried to reg me almost every day for more accommodations that I didn’t really need. As long as reg can smell a credit card that isn’t maxed out to its credit limit, well, it’s bit like a vulture that can smell rotting meat. What legitimate hotel gets people to pay in advance for accommodations that they might not even need? It’s the $cientology vulture culture that drives people away more than anything else. Have you EVER seen a reg that didn’t look like a hungry and desperate vulture? Why is this behavior not only tolerated but even encouraged by senior management? It’s all about the stats and money…