Well said, Val. Your other comments were spot on too. I guess no one wants to take the challenge and reply. 😉

Clearly not clear, that was a wonderful post. Thanks for all your thoughts. I really appreciated you sharing them.

Brian, how is this – “Course study was self hypnosis. We payed to have false doctrines and dogmas, false cosmologies and world views installed in our receptive minds. Once they are in, they go into the subconscious, spring loaded to cause cognitive difficulties.” – different from any education offered by the societies in which we live, with their pledges of allegiance, religious or secular indoctrinations etc? We pay for our kids to get “liberal” educations at colleges and Universities…

Ghandi, George Washington, Teddy Roosevelt, Dr. Seuss, Abraham Lincoln, Ben Franklin, and others of previous times held similar views.

How do you explain the existence of the IAS?

Many of these arguments seem to me to amount to saying that if Hitler or Stalin told me 2+2=4, why should I believe him, when I know he is a sociopath?

Dear Mike,
I mirror TJ in saying there is nothing to apologize for. What Brian says is so true. When I first discovered your blog I fell on the comment threads like a thirsty man to water.
My creaky, see no cognitive dissonance, hear no cognitive dissonance and speak no cognitive dissonance self was frightened by the openess and at times rudeness directed at the cherch, DM and especially Elron.
But I avidly came and read it all. Daring to leave no comments myself.
The first time I saw the word BT discussed in a thread something broke down inside me. The holding, the fear, the tip toeing around what I really thought and wouldn’t hear myself say, came through. A whole raft of cooped up cognitive dissonance spilled out and I discussed with my spouse what people were saying and what my experience was.
It was a wow moment and I started occasionally commenting.
I’m trying to say that I thrive on the discussions. I read them. If they are repetitive I read them because maybe I’m different even if the conversation is similar.
I get value from Wynski going off on someone. I admire the earnestness of Marildi. I adore Brian’s and the other philosopher commenters comments on spiritual searches, great spiritual teachings and the idea that other people were plagiarized. I bask in the warmth of Ann Watson’s lovely, glowy, heart, shining in her kind and encouraging words.
And the stories, like Lowie’s. The stories fill the hole in my heart where certainty used to live.
I think the stories are my favorite thing.
Marildi you have said in response to people asking for your story or some response that you’ve said all your going to say about your origin story. But I’m fairly newly out. I know your name and feel your position, but I’ve never seen anything in comments about your story. Maybe I missed the day you spilled your guts. And for the record if you didn’t share your views these discussions wouldn’t happen. Whether I agree with you or not, I value your voice. Keep talking.
Dare to be repetitive. People are interested in where you’re coming from. I am.
I remember that Chris Shelton’s video about Ideal Orgs and his part in creating them as a Sea Org worker, and how what he saw showed him how wrong headed the program was, helped him leave. That was the pivotal moment I knew I needed to leave.
But when a few days later I saw a video of his where he said something that went against my admiration for Elron I was affronted. It upset me. I stopped watching him for a few weeks.
It was the comments on these threads that got me to open my eyes. I then went back to Chris Shelton and it was like it was a new video. It was because the Mike Rinder blogs and comments had opened my mind to look at other viewpoints and not judge and instantly “know” this was right and that was wrong. I generally responded with the instant decision making I’d been trained in through years of courseroom indocrination.
Here’s what I did in my mind before leaving the cherch when confronted with someone’s truth that was not rah-rah, the church, DM and Elron are great. I thought “that’s CI” (counter intention) or “That’s entheta” (bad) or “That’s natter” (carping critical comments) or “clearly they have overts and are justifying,” I’d been taught to dismiss as unworthy communication that didn’t agree that $cientology was great. I had blinkers on and my pat responses in my mind for why I shouldn’t listen to differing opinions.
Since this post is about PTSness, I’ll share another instant response to a truth about $cientology being told to an unwilling listener, I’d think, “Clearly they are PTS. I wouldn’t be surprised if since they are talking like this that they get declared. I wonder what SP they are connected to?”
Mike Rinder your blog, Chris Shelton’s Video’s, Tony Ortega’s Blog and Dave Fagan’s incredible story/blog (bless you Dave Fagan) these blogs and videos were my magic carpet ride out of the spiritual desert I was in.
Mike Rinder commenters. I read you, I hear you. Don’t fear to state what your truth is repetitively. Those arguments turned my atrophied ability to think for myself back on after a long, deep and terrible sleep. I appreciate you.
When in doubt, spill your shit, speak up, argufy, stick your nose in, quote Elron’s name in vain, think freely, share messily, love your commenting community by sharing your mind, your ire, your funny moments, your pivotal coming out thoughts, your meandering journey out and into a better life. And I’ll be there listening, learning, shouting back, laughing with you and loving it and loving you whether we agree or not.

NO MORE PLEASE

OK– that’s enough. This is getting idiotic.

The response to you could just as easily be that your assertion that this is an Assertion is just an Assertion because because tyhere is no val;id research that shows that Dianetics and Scientology deliver consistent results in good time…”

Please just stop the endless “I have to have the last word” — it is childish.

“You could call the subtle body the ‘soul’ but it is just machinery. You are its consciousness.”

Yes, and the consciousness conneced with that machinery carries with it, lifetime to lifetime, the experiences it has witnessed – and in that sense the soul identity goes on. (This is just an ack! 🙂 )

And yes – an interesting and fun exchange.