PM, I don’t agree that the points you make relate to all the comments here – many go beyond “useful catharsis.” With regard to the posters who understandably need catharsis, the quote I posted above is applicable and would help them even more. Particularly this paragraph:

“Our process of forgiveness may include speaking out and seeking justice, but in the end it is also a compassionate letting go, for our own sake as much as for others. It is like the meeting of two former prisoners of war: When one asked ‘Have you forgiven your former captors?’ the other replied, “no, never.” The first ex-prisoner looked with kindness at his friend and said, ‘Well, then they still have you in prison, don’t they.'”

And since you quoted Viktor Frankl, here is another quote of his:

“Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.”

Thanks Peacemaker. The subject always was a two-edged sword. Great gains at times, versus craziness with debt and schedules and family pulling the other way. For people struggling to regain their lives, I hope there are mechanisms in place for when they first leave (the SO). After that … oddly enough I have found Facebook to be a great source of finding peace, as you can control what comes on your feed. Robin Sharma, Dalai Lama, Power of Positivity, etc. That together with staying active and involved with others. Being in a band. Sports.

If someone I loved were stuck in the church, it would drive me crazy (now I know what my parents went through, back in the day, for those years).

We can continue this at another time if you like. Thanks for all of this.

marilidi, I think you may be getting at something with that quote about survivors – the problem is, if you fully draw out the analogy, the battle is still going on, and prisoners are still being held captive and abused. How is one supposed to “let go” in that situation, particularly when family and friends are still “missing in action”?

I think that some of what goes on here, has to be appreciated as useful catharsis – to begin with, as I pointed out in another comment, former scientologists may be just turning around what Scientology itself trains and does with respect to how to treat a party determined to be “enemy.” Hubbard, in particular, was set up on a pedestal in a way that was a complete lie, and that misrepresentation was part of what was used to lure and control people, so I think it is understandable that there can be real anger about that.

If you and Spike have some construction suggestions about how people can start to move on, or at least achieve greater peace, while there’s still an ongoing struggle in which they may have a compelling if not even gut-wrenching stake, that could indeed be useful. Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankl, who might be a source of inspiration if you’re not already familiar with him, nonetheless said “An abnormal reaction to an abnormal situation is normal behavior.”

I’ll point out again, this Mission Statement of this particular blog is to “Expose the abuses” and serve as an information clearinghouse. And our proprietor, is one of those people who is still disconnected from his family, and so can’t even reconcile with his own flesh and blood, much less those who transgressed against him personally.

p.s. We’re in deep here, in a couple of ways, and so need to wrap it up and continue any discussion on some newer topic where it’s relevant.

(rewrite of a comment that apparently was lost)

Spike, thanks for your responses to my comments, I really appreciate hearing from you.

It sounds to me now like you are earnestly looking into things for yourself, and not particularly bound by old beliefs and assumptions (perhaps in part because of the passage of time, in comparison to others). If you are at a different point in your process, or have come to different conclusions based on evaluating the evidence, I can understand that.

As I’ve written a bit about at times, the Affirmations make sense to me in the context of what I know about techniques that Hubbard experimented with, including automatic writing and hypnosis. They are a calculated attempt to plant intentions in the subconscious, and not unthinking responses as from auditing, but we don’t need to go into that here.

And I particularly appreciate your sharing of your personal experience. I’m glad to hear that you were perceptive enough to get out, and keep your family out of Scientology. It’s particularly interesting for me to hear yet another witness confirm that things started getting bad at least as early as the 1970s (and real old timers with push it back to the 1960s, with the introduction of ethics) under Hubbard, which is something I only figured out in the last 6 months. I had enough previous knowledge and experience that I was always a bit wary, which kept me from getting too involved, but a lot of people who came along later seem set in the impression that things were all wonderful before the 1980s – and mistakenly assumed, that anything wrong had to do with Miscavige coming to power.

I knew of couple of the really old-time indies who I respected, and always had the hope that movement would really come into its own. But it seems to me that they aren’t really innovating, and are growing hardly if at all just because they get a stream of defectors from the CofS. And this is also where I think evaluating Hubbard’s intent is important, because that has implications for the whether anything can be salvaged from his work – if it was more focused on achieving control than freedom, whether through callous utility or even cynical intent, the negative elements may be so imbued in it that there is little to do other than start fresh. (that seems to be Marty Rathbun’s conclusion, and I think essentially also where a lot of old timers who now only do the basics of “book one” auditing are at, though I came to it on my own)

And I do agree that negativity can get out of hand, and hope you’ve noticed that I make some effort myself to constrain it.

A couple of other points, I’ll address in a comment to marildi.

About forgiveness…

I say let the ghost of LRH dragging a ball and chain, present a petition written in his own blood, to be signed by every person he has infected with his nonsensical philosophy, calling for his release from the lower condition of “hellfire”. And let those who sign it, do so with disappearing ink!

marildi, I’m afraid that’s the best I can do but it does show I’m trying, right?

Yes, Marildi, exactly. 🙂

And thank you for yours Spike. 🙂

Typo in this part of the quote: “To forgive we must FACE [not “fact”] the pain and sorrow of…”

Spike: “Maybe you can tell me why so many people on this blog seem so stuck in ridicule, of the topics at hand. That is spiritually very unhealthy (in my opinion). This seems to change little.”

My observations too. On the point about it being spiritually unhealthy, here’s a quote from one spiritual teacher about forgiveness:

“Forgiveness is both a preparation and an end in spiritual life, a theme we return to many times. To forgive we must fact the pain and sorrow of our betrayal and disappointment, and discover the movement of heart that opens to forgive in spite of it all….

“Our process of forgiveness may include speaking out and seeking justice, but in the end it is also a compassionate letting go, for our own sake as much as for others. It is like the meeting of two former prisoners of war: When one asked ‘Have you forgiven your former captors?’ the other replied, “no, never.” The first ex-prisoner looked with kindness at his friend and said, ‘Well, then they still have you in prison, don’t they.’”

(from the book “After the Ecstasy, the Laundry”)

Hey Peacemaker – I’ve been ‘out’ for thirty-five years, give or take. I suppose people can come to their own conclusions about Ron and the C of S. I for one am not going to dwell on it right now.

I was thinking tonight, it was cool making connections with people with whom I have something in common. Maybe you can tell me why so many people on this blog seem so stuck in ridicule, of the topics at hand. That is spiritually very unhealthy (in my opinion). This seems to change little.

Wouldn’t it be cool, as a group on this blog, to do something different for a change. Something creative, or useful. We could start Go Fund Me accounts for various things, as one example. Animal Aid Unlimited in India is a good cause, see their Facebook page.

What do you think?

Also, I bet a lot of people on this blog are artists and musicians, writers, etc. How about reaching out to each other in this way?