This debate is a waste of time. I will give you a reference that justifies my position and you will pull out another one that justifies your position. And they are opposite positions. And there will be nothing odd about that to you at all. And you will also probably be satisfied that “he didnt have a reference, so I win.” Use some observational skills and logic instead of just “what’s the reference.” Like I said at the outset of this silly debate, OT V and VII are still dealing with Incident II, even you admit that is not an untrue statement (BTW, LRH also suggested that a pilot be run to just go straight onto NOTs and not run OT III at all — but you will say that is “hidden data” and it is, but it’s certainly relevant information and it makes SENSE when compared to everything else he said).

Also, FYI, because I was one of the first people in the world to get NOTs (delivered by one of the first auditors trained on it as part of their internship before it was released to the public) as part of the legal cases in the church, I studied every NOT’s HCOB compilation, read every transcript of every briefing between LRH and Mayo/Melanie Murray and read every note he wrote about the subject of NOTs. I also audited many hours of NOTs in the RPF and subsequently Solo NOTs. I am not uninformed on the subject as you would seem to think.

And how were they CREATED?

And who says that mocking something up means it is not ACTUALLY there? Is a Reactive Mind not there?

And no , you are not “mocking up” these “attachments”. They are ACTUALLY there. So no ceasing of any “mocking it up” will get rid of it. And certainly no INC II running. Just plain and Standard NOTs technique.

The Phoenix

I am certainly not trolling , Mr. Rinder. I just want straight facts to be presented here. There is not any LRH ref in existence about OT V and VII being in any way related to Incident II. Out of respect, as you so elocuent put it, let’s not go into the confidentiality of it all , but at least do mention the name of the HCOB where this “datum” of yours is to be found. There isn’t anywhere. Incident II is, as you should know, 75 millions old. What you audit at V or VII didn’t necesarily got attached to you at Inc II. These “attachments” could have come ( and did in most instances) from periods well before Inc II and thus, most of these “attachments” blow w/out any running of Inc II whatsoever. Inc II is not the origin of why these “attachments” attach. The reason they do is well covered in the NOTs materials. And since when is presenting the actual truth an act of trolling ?

ARC
THE PHOENIX

He needs the massive spaces to house his ego and all the lies he has told.

It just highlights the failure of the “tech”. Ron was supposed to be OT god knows what and what we find out was in the end he considered himself a failure, beset by imaginary beings, likely off’d by his minions due to his unstable mental state and completely human disintegration of his body, unable to function — no OTness to be found in him what-so-ever. Well unfortunately – when you’ve spent your life trying to flim-flam the world to enrich and empower yourself while all the while putting forth the PR line that you are mankind’s greatest friend… Whoo boy what an amends project he’s looking forward to.

Yes, he was quite human.

If you can’t figure that out, there is no explaining I can do that will make sense. I phrased it that way, somewhat euphemistically, out of deference to those who find it offensive to talk about the details of the OT levels. Where did what you handle on OT V and VII come from if NOT from Incident II in your estimation? You mocked it up? In which case, a decision to stop unmocking it would be good enough to bring it to an end… But I fear I am wasting my fat fingers typing this as you are likely just trolling.

Carcha — you are more than welcome to express your views and I appreciate everyone who is willing to have their say. I don’t claim to be all-knowing or be the smartest person in the world. I proide what information I havce any my view of things. I express my opinions. I don’t think anyone is really all wrong or all right….

Carcha — the observable facts all point in one direction, but you choose to look in another direction you are perfectly entitled to do so.

Perhaps LRH knew the church was lost, and anything he said would be fruitless, even if it was printed and reached staff. Perhaps he did write or record something, but it was, um … “lost.” My first run-in with theft at established institutions was the “disappearance” of a thousand some-odd dollars of my stuff from a guarded university warehouse. The explanation I got was, “Things have a way of walkin’ around here.” I’m not about to believe that everything about the Co$ is known. I do know I’d trust Hubbard before Wright, or Rathbun, or Karen … or Miscavige.