>I never diagnosed the “every body knows syndrome” as a mental illness

You didn’t, but Hubbard did. He referred to it as a sign of an antisocial personality. Outside of the bubble, Antisocial Personality Disorder is an actual diagnosable (if that’s a word) condition, and a very serious one. And it has nothing to do with speaking in generalities. Hubbard’s statement about “the antisocial person” are about as ridiculous as if he said an itchy foot was one of the four signs of pancreatic cancer.

>that there *are* definitely people who speak in broad generalities to upset others.

There may well be. But would you say it’s a definite sign that someone is an antisocial person? And would you say that only antisocial persons speak in broad generalities?

> wife beating unfortunately was quite common back in the day Hubbard wrote Dianetics

A separate conversation (and no doubt an interesting one), but you’re doing a classic Scientology job of trying to shift the subject. Do you think husbands really beat their wives shouting “Take that! You’ve got to take it!” (and in the process turned their soon-to-be-born children into kleptomaniacs)? Because that’s what Hubbard said would happen.

> I don’t agree with this conspiracy theory of yours that Hubbard assumed Scientologists or people in general were idiots

Flunk: Word-clear “conspiracy theory”. This is not a matter of opinion. When speaking/writing to Scientologists, Hubbard repeatedly assigned irrational behavior and thoughts to them. He said the schools were purposely teaching people not to think. He said that before his Admin Tech, mankind did not have a successful method to run a business. (How many WISE companies are on the Fortune 500? Zero, How many non-AT companies are? Five hundred.) Clearly, the evidence showed that Hubbard painted a world that defied common sense, and he expected his followers to believe lies that were easily provable as such. Ergo, Hubbard assumed the vast majority of people were idiots.

>Currently there is no organization on Earth that doing more damage to the credibility of the subject than the Church of Scientology.

Not quite. Truth is, there is no organization anywhere doing more damage to the credibility of Scientology than the subject of Scientology itself. The “tech” does not stand up to reason or analysis. It presents no evidence for its claims, and Hubbard went out of his way to explain why no evidence can be provided.

If you will forgive my directness, it’s baloney. And the reason the Church of Scientology is failing is not just because DM is an ill-tempered little punk — it’s because he’s trying to build an empire based on something that does not work. Scientology “technology” does not work because Scientology is unworkable*. If I was DM, I’d be mad, too.

* The bits he cribbed from psychotherapy do work rather nicely. Why do you think Scientology excludes people with a history of psychiatric care? Because they’ll recognize the therapy for what it is, and are likely to point that out to their fellow Scientologists. Crediting Hubbard for the bits that work is the key to keeping them in. Blow that illusion and the whole thing collapses.

It doesn’t have to scare the pants off you, it can be merely a baptism by fire 🙂

Some parts of scientology (the lower grades) undeniably “work”, for some definition of work. Take Grade 0 – too many people complete it and do genuinely feel they are better able to communicate. Too many people complete it and others see they can communicate better.

So something is going on there. But what? No doubt you’ve sat down with a friends at least once in your life and talked through some problem they were having to their satisfaction. I think that is what is really going on with the parts of scientology that work. If you give someone a safe space and opportunity to work through a problem, they will almost always do exactly that. We humans are wired to remember and to learn, so it’s very easy for us to look at a problem we have, figure out some kind of solution for it, and feel better as a result. The result is always subjective – how would you measure anyway if someone can communicate better? What you can achieve is someone feels he can communicate better and so opens his mouth more. Their communication is going to appeal to someone along the way.

All that formal nonsense in Scientology with the exact C/S, order of questions, the meter, exam afterwards – all that stuff is ritual and has nothing to do with “technology”. It might have something to do with making the other person feel safe. I don’t think Hubbard was an evil bastard running a deliberate long con, that is too simplistic and humans just are not like that. I do think he was messed in the head, mostly clueless about life as a whole and spoke drivel. he then got to believe his drivel. Doesn’t change the end result much though.

AG,

I never diagnosed the “every body knows syndrome” as a mental illness 😉

My own view on the PL on the Anti-social personality you cited is that there *are* definitely people who speak in broad generalities to upset others.

For example during the Iraqi War as Bush said you are either for us or against us inferring that any one who opposed his great adventure was a traitor.

“Us” referring to some broad consensus of some kind which in fact never existed especially if you read the Gallup polls at the time.

Same could be said for some low life who tells somebody “every one thinks you’re crazy”.

Also I don’t know what world you live in AG but wife beating unfortunately was quite common back in the day Hubbard wrote Dianetics. So were attempted abortions. So common that it is included in Robert Yates’ book Revolutionary Road.

Also I don’t agree with this conspiracy theory of yours that Hubbard assumed Scientologists or people in general were idiots because he was imparting information that supposedly “everybody knew”.

In my opinion this is like assuming that anyone involved in pedagogy or teaching assumes their students are idiots.

Moving on.

Yes I agree with you AG.

Like the cartoon Pogo:

“We have met the enemy… and he is us”.

Currently there is no organization on Earth that doing more damage to the credibility of the subject than the Church of Scientology.

I mean forget about the AMA, FDA, FBI, CIA, NSA, the US Postal Service and of course Smersh AKA WFMH and the NIMHs connected to them.

The Church under Miscavige’s “leadership” has managed to self destruct and what we have left is a Cult of true believers AKA “Koolaid Drinkers” somewhat like the People’s Temple or the Unification Church lead by some Jimmy Jones or Sun Myung Moon wannabe.

I guess you could compare it to Al-Qaeda as Mike does in his next post but from what little I understand of Al-Qaeda which means “the base” in Arabic has no focal point or actual structure since it is basically a network created during the Jihad in Afghanistan and never really had an actual leader per se.

This idea that UBL actually lead it is a myth that was created by the media and various authors who were probably working for the CIA to create the illusion in my opinion that that GWOT was directed toward a cohesive enemy of some kind.

Much like Al-Qaeda the majority of Scientology has become an Independent network where most of its practitioners now practice independently.

Anyway.

That’s my view on the whole scene.

Actually, I stole these off the Internet.

For the few people who say the “original” Scientology worked, I imagine anything can work if you are ready to improve your life and work at doing that. And there are a few basic LRH ideas that work. So be it. What I always go back to is this man was a proven liar, an egomaniac, an accomplished and well payed FICTION WRITER who claims all of this nonsense came to him during a dentist appt (apparently his last one as he let his teeth rot). He did NOT have super powers, he needed glasses. He was totally obsessed with masterbation and abortion. Does this sound like a person you would be willing to invest yourself financially and psychologically in? HELL NO. There are so many beautiful ways to improve your life that don’t manage to destroy it in the process. I have the advantage of being a never-in, and admittedly have become semi-obsessed with learning about all things scientology and it scares THE PANTS OFF ME.

Remoteviewed,

>I haven’t seen so much back twisted logic in one post in a long time.

What was it Hubbard said about accusing people of the crimes they are guilty of committing? 🙂

> First you accuse me of being brain washed for asking for specifics

Nowhere in any of my posts did *I* accuse you of bring brainwashed. Perhaps you’re mixing me up with another poster. This would lead me to believe that you are lumping anyone who disagrees with you into “them” (vs “us”). (The us vs. them mentality, by the way, is considered one of the signs that one is in a cult. I’m just sayin’.)

For the record, I’m not convinced that you aren’t brainwashed, but I didn’t accuse you of it. 🙂

>Then when I point out accurately that asking for specifics was never originated by Hubbard.

Was there supposed to be more to that sentence?

>Yet you insist Hubbard must think everyone is stupid because he wrote a policy on what “everybody” knew but obviously you didn’t because I had to mention it.

First, I did know the policy, apparently better than you did, since I had to quote it to you. (This is why we don’t do verbal tech!)

Second, Hubbard did seem to assume that most people are stupid — it’s a symptom of the narcissism with which he was clearly afflicted. And yes, the policy does intimate that people are stupid. It implies that if someone says “Everyone knows Hubbard is full of shit” that a person must be speaking literally, not metaphorically, and attempting to lie. In other words, everyone knows what people mean when they say “Everyone knows that.”

I do agree that when people say “Everyone knows X” they often can (and should be) more specific. But it’s not necessarily an effort to deceive, and it’s certainly no basis for a diagnosis of a mental condition. Be honest, how many times have you encountered real people in real life acting or talking the way Ron said that wogs do? Schools teaching people that thinking and communicating are impossible? (Anatomy of Thought) Husbands beating their pregnant wives and saying “Take that! Take that, I tell you! You’ve got to take it!” (Dianetics) That stuff just doesn’t happen. And yet Hubbard talks as if it does. Hubbard paints a world where people are idiots – and then he presents it to his loyal followers as fact (hence his carefully-chosen word “data”). That should be a clue as to regard he holds for his beloved Scientologists. (Best Friend of Mankind, my foot.)

Again, you are following the same circle of logic that keeps people inside the Church of Scientology. You are arguing around the central point without actually addressing it: Hubbard’s concept that speaking in generalities is a sign of an antisocial personality does not stand up to logic, let alone the pure impossibility of a person speaking (and I quote Hubbard) “only in very broad generalities.”

My point, and I do have one, is this:

The only was concepts like this make sense is if the person who believes them WANTS them to make sense.

You want them to make sense. So you find ways to avoid the arguments that tear through this “data” like a finger into soggy tissue paper.

It’s the same mentality that keeps people donating to the Co$ and believing those clearly unbelievable statistics that the Scientology PR machine keeps spouting.

“We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

Chuck,

Personally I don’t think that the Mk Ultra was ever a needed and wanted item.

I use an old Mk VI and it works just fine.

Any “upgrade” or “improvement” since the VI hasn’t really been needed.

I mean the VII’s has an LCD that reads TA.

Who needs it?

It also has a needle that is too light and reacts to static electricity on the glass causing it to give a false R/S.

The Quantum is even worse and it has a variable sen which can obscure the F/N after a Tone Arm blowdown.

The Ultra is supposed to make reads 50000x clearer according to their promo.

Oh please.

If an auditor can’t see a read even using an antiquated Mathison mainline meter then he or she might as well turn their certs in for seeing eye dog.

From what I understand Chuck there are all kinds of electronic wizzes turning out meters plus you can now get ’em off eBay.

Not a problem.

Personally the Church has shot itself in the foot by demanding that anyone who is training or is on Solo can *only* use the Ultra.

That is if their actual intention is to make auditors and OTs.

But I don’t think it is.

LR

Worse is the possible problems they might be having with non workable and rusty (discolored from the 9 years in storage) condition meters that on ExScn forum was reported.

I’m curious how Ron’s Org, which seems the most organized Scientology delivery organization outside of official Scientology, how Ron’s Org gets by these same problems.

I’m sure rich Scientologists would be more happy to donate towards getting sufficient materials in all their churches for the membership to share using, I’ll bet!

AG,

You should have gone into politics.

I haven’t seen so much back twisted logic in one post in a long time.

First you accuse me of being brain washed for asking for specifics because asking for specifics is like soooooooo Scientology…

Like whatever.

Then when I point out accurately that asking for specifics was never originated by Hubbard.

Yet you insist Hubbard must think everyone is stupid because he wrote a policy on what “everybody” knew but obviously you didn’t because I had to mention it.

Think about that AG 😉