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	<title>
	Comments on: Clearwater&#8217;s Scientology Perception Problem	</title>
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	<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/</link>
	<description>Something Can Be Done About It</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2021 02:44:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Alcoboy		</title>
		<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-441546</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alcoboy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2021 02:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mikerindersblog.org/?p=2613061#comment-441546</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440620&quot;&gt;Jere Lull&lt;/a&gt;.

Yep. Guy loses printing shop and has to flee town because he exposed a religious leader&#039;s illicit sexual activities.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440620">Jere Lull</a>.</p>
<p>Yep. Guy loses printing shop and has to flee town because he exposed a religious leader&#8217;s illicit sexual activities.</p>
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		<title>
		By: donna		</title>
		<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440814</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[donna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2021 16:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mikerindersblog.org/?p=2613061#comment-440814</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So what I do not understand is how can residents NOT care who is buying the properties.  IF I understand correctly, the land / buildings owned by Scientology or the Scientology groups are tax exempt.  EVERY property that they buy takes away tax base from the city which means that a greater portion of the overall tax burden has to be shared by other businesses and or city residents who own properties.  Add on the fact that many of the properties are not being actively used and it makes downtown an eyesore that is sucking more tax money out of the city from those who do pay for additional policing etc. as traditionally abandoned properties tend to attract greater incidents of fringe issues.  In some cities, there are bylaws in place that say once a property is purchased, the new owner has only so long to develop it / upgrade it or resell it before penalties start to be assessed. Time for politeness is far, FAR over here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what I do not understand is how can residents NOT care who is buying the properties.  IF I understand correctly, the land / buildings owned by Scientology or the Scientology groups are tax exempt.  EVERY property that they buy takes away tax base from the city which means that a greater portion of the overall tax burden has to be shared by other businesses and or city residents who own properties.  Add on the fact that many of the properties are not being actively used and it makes downtown an eyesore that is sucking more tax money out of the city from those who do pay for additional policing etc. as traditionally abandoned properties tend to attract greater incidents of fringe issues.  In some cities, there are bylaws in place that say once a property is purchased, the new owner has only so long to develop it / upgrade it or resell it before penalties start to be assessed. Time for politeness is far, FAR over here.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Real		</title>
		<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440787</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Real]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2021 15:13:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mikerindersblog.org/?p=2613061#comment-440787</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[citizens would be pleasantly surprised at what happens to their residential property value if scamology is kicked out.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>citizens would be pleasantly surprised at what happens to their residential property value if scamology is kicked out.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mockingbird		</title>
		<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440686</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mockingbird]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2021 08:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mikerindersblog.org/?p=2613061#comment-440686</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440619&quot;&gt;Jere Lull&lt;/a&gt;.

Well, I don&#039;t know if most people would understand what the false purpose rundown or truth rundown are but if you merely take basic ideas presented in lots of Scientology references and turn the tables on David Miscavige and present the information broadly it would seem odd to the general public but it might get a few people in Scientology to realize that Scientology is authority based and the alleged principles fall apart if applied to the leaders.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440619">Jere Lull</a>.</p>
<p>Well, I don&#8217;t know if most people would understand what the false purpose rundown or truth rundown are but if you merely take basic ideas presented in lots of Scientology references and turn the tables on David Miscavige and present the information broadly it would seem odd to the general public but it might get a few people in Scientology to realize that Scientology is authority based and the alleged principles fall apart if applied to the leaders.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mockingbird		</title>
		<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440684</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mockingbird]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2021 08:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mikerindersblog.org/?p=2613061#comment-440684</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440617&quot;&gt;Jere Lull&lt;/a&gt;.

I am not a legal expert but in most places some policies, meaning laws in this context, cover what can be recorded. If the government and business leaders simply don&#039;t communicate in any way with David Miscavige or any Scientology representatives unless the communication is legally allowed to GE recorded and shared then David Miscavige will have to play by their rules or not play at all.

In this context THEY can make the rules and HE David Miscavige has to comply.

It would annoy him and put him in a position he does not like. 

But further it would put his words out into the open.


The ultimate way to take down Scientology is to expose the two faces.

Alexandria Stein in her book Terror, Love and Brainwashing described how cults usually have doctrine for outsiders and new recruits that is propaganda in her model. 

The Way to Happiness is this type of information, designed to make Scientology seem palatable to outsiders and new recruits.

Other doctrine that is more questionable is contained in Scientology and includes many references on the subject of ethics and the treatment of suppressive persons and the interaction with governments, among many topics.

These references are indoctrination in the model presented by Alexandria Stein, intended to influence the true believer.

The way you expose Scientology is to simply document the true history of Scientology, including lies, extensive plagiarism from other subjects, which almost invariably had all failed in their own turn, and the two paths of the propaganda and indoctrination in Scientology.

These two sets of information are both fundamentally divorced from truth and reality, which is easy to observe, but further they directly contradict each other. 

This contradiction is a way to show Scientologists that Scientology is not cohesive or coherent as a philosophy, regardless of its inability to survive inspection using scientific method and reality based subjects to evaluate it. 

Most people, frankly, don&#039;t have a very good education regarding critical thinking, scientific method, and evaluation of the foundation and claims in a subject.

So, rather than trying to start by overcoming that huge barrier it is often better to pick a shorter route to getting a person to question something that they do understand. 


The classic example of the propaganda and indoctrination in Scientology being in obvious conflict is the Posse of Lunatics story put out by Scientology in the Freedom Magazine.

Simply put this was a propaganda piece portraying Scientology as just another religion and the victim of a half dozen or so allegedly incompetent and stumbling and bumbling Three Stooges like people who were in Scientology for decades as Sea Org members at the very highest level of the Sea Org and it portrays the Sea Org as incapable of doing anything effective about them!

It portrays the Sea Org as all too human and vulnerable to deception and utterly blind to incompetence and not evil.

Okay, that was designed for the general public and to the average person who never was involved with Scientology a story of a few people flying under the radar and sabotaging an all too human organization is believable. Sure.

But the Freedom story was of course examined by Scientology cult members and it had a remarkable, historic effect.

See, we were used to dismissing ALL criticism of Scientology as simply lies motivated by hidden crimes that we were used to not facing them and pivoting to criticism of the source, using the genetic fallacy (looking at the genesis or source and not a claim) and not engaging in critical thinking.

So, the official story from Scientology was that the allegedly superhuman OTs leading the Sea Org were fooled for decades by the incompetent fumbling and bumbling Posse of Lunatics!

To understand the problem with this you have to understand that we were taught for decades that the Sea Org was lead by OTs that Hubbard made using some miraculous techniques he supposedly used in his &quot;research&quot;.

These beings were described as more God than human and supposed to have a wide array of powers including telepathy, precognition, telekinesis, mind control, healing, super sanity, superhuman intelligence, and on and on and on.

They were also supposed to have magical technology that they could use to evaluate data, run organizations, find and understand underlying reasons behind conditions and on and on and on.

Now the real problem becomes apparent.

Hundreds, maybe thousands, of Scientologists realized that if these alleged incompetent half dozen Sea Org members were unstoppable and they were allowed to remain in high positions in the highest echelons of the Sea Org then the supposed Godhood of the OTs had to be, well, false. It&#039;s the only plausible explanation.

And when WE realized that the Sea Org has no OTs and no super technology then everything shifts, it certainly did for me.

It makes it possible to reconsider everything from the premise that there are no OTs leading Scientology.

OTs are described as so powerful and invincible that if he had created hundreds or thousands of them and left hundreds leading the Sea Org then there is nothing that is powerful enough to have neutralized them in the few decades since his death.

So the only reasonable explanation for how the allegedly invincible core of a few hundred demigods are now as ineffective and incompetent as us mere mortals is that they never existed. 

In other words Hubbard never made any OTs. And once it is comprehensible that Hubbard was wrong about that it is a very short step to realize he was aware of that and hid it. And that leads to seeing that there are no clears and then we can see that auditing is not at all what it is presented as and that the reactive mind, engrams, overts and witholds and all the rest as presented by Hubbard simply don&#039;t exist. 

That&#039;s one example of contrasting propaganda and indoctrination. There are many, many, many others.

We can present policies and quotes on the treatment of people against the Way to Happiness and other things and show that Scientology is a dangerous, harmful, abusive, and criminal organization.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440617">Jere Lull</a>.</p>
<p>I am not a legal expert but in most places some policies, meaning laws in this context, cover what can be recorded. If the government and business leaders simply don&#8217;t communicate in any way with David Miscavige or any Scientology representatives unless the communication is legally allowed to GE recorded and shared then David Miscavige will have to play by their rules or not play at all.</p>
<p>In this context THEY can make the rules and HE David Miscavige has to comply.</p>
<p>It would annoy him and put him in a position he does not like. </p>
<p>But further it would put his words out into the open.</p>
<p>The ultimate way to take down Scientology is to expose the two faces.</p>
<p>Alexandria Stein in her book Terror, Love and Brainwashing described how cults usually have doctrine for outsiders and new recruits that is propaganda in her model. </p>
<p>The Way to Happiness is this type of information, designed to make Scientology seem palatable to outsiders and new recruits.</p>
<p>Other doctrine that is more questionable is contained in Scientology and includes many references on the subject of ethics and the treatment of suppressive persons and the interaction with governments, among many topics.</p>
<p>These references are indoctrination in the model presented by Alexandria Stein, intended to influence the true believer.</p>
<p>The way you expose Scientology is to simply document the true history of Scientology, including lies, extensive plagiarism from other subjects, which almost invariably had all failed in their own turn, and the two paths of the propaganda and indoctrination in Scientology.</p>
<p>These two sets of information are both fundamentally divorced from truth and reality, which is easy to observe, but further they directly contradict each other. </p>
<p>This contradiction is a way to show Scientologists that Scientology is not cohesive or coherent as a philosophy, regardless of its inability to survive inspection using scientific method and reality based subjects to evaluate it. </p>
<p>Most people, frankly, don&#8217;t have a very good education regarding critical thinking, scientific method, and evaluation of the foundation and claims in a subject.</p>
<p>So, rather than trying to start by overcoming that huge barrier it is often better to pick a shorter route to getting a person to question something that they do understand. </p>
<p>The classic example of the propaganda and indoctrination in Scientology being in obvious conflict is the Posse of Lunatics story put out by Scientology in the Freedom Magazine.</p>
<p>Simply put this was a propaganda piece portraying Scientology as just another religion and the victim of a half dozen or so allegedly incompetent and stumbling and bumbling Three Stooges like people who were in Scientology for decades as Sea Org members at the very highest level of the Sea Org and it portrays the Sea Org as incapable of doing anything effective about them!</p>
<p>It portrays the Sea Org as all too human and vulnerable to deception and utterly blind to incompetence and not evil.</p>
<p>Okay, that was designed for the general public and to the average person who never was involved with Scientology a story of a few people flying under the radar and sabotaging an all too human organization is believable. Sure.</p>
<p>But the Freedom story was of course examined by Scientology cult members and it had a remarkable, historic effect.</p>
<p>See, we were used to dismissing ALL criticism of Scientology as simply lies motivated by hidden crimes that we were used to not facing them and pivoting to criticism of the source, using the genetic fallacy (looking at the genesis or source and not a claim) and not engaging in critical thinking.</p>
<p>So, the official story from Scientology was that the allegedly superhuman OTs leading the Sea Org were fooled for decades by the incompetent fumbling and bumbling Posse of Lunatics!</p>
<p>To understand the problem with this you have to understand that we were taught for decades that the Sea Org was lead by OTs that Hubbard made using some miraculous techniques he supposedly used in his &#8220;research&#8221;.</p>
<p>These beings were described as more God than human and supposed to have a wide array of powers including telepathy, precognition, telekinesis, mind control, healing, super sanity, superhuman intelligence, and on and on and on.</p>
<p>They were also supposed to have magical technology that they could use to evaluate data, run organizations, find and understand underlying reasons behind conditions and on and on and on.</p>
<p>Now the real problem becomes apparent.</p>
<p>Hundreds, maybe thousands, of Scientologists realized that if these alleged incompetent half dozen Sea Org members were unstoppable and they were allowed to remain in high positions in the highest echelons of the Sea Org then the supposed Godhood of the OTs had to be, well, false. It&#8217;s the only plausible explanation.</p>
<p>And when WE realized that the Sea Org has no OTs and no super technology then everything shifts, it certainly did for me.</p>
<p>It makes it possible to reconsider everything from the premise that there are no OTs leading Scientology.</p>
<p>OTs are described as so powerful and invincible that if he had created hundreds or thousands of them and left hundreds leading the Sea Org then there is nothing that is powerful enough to have neutralized them in the few decades since his death.</p>
<p>So the only reasonable explanation for how the allegedly invincible core of a few hundred demigods are now as ineffective and incompetent as us mere mortals is that they never existed. </p>
<p>In other words Hubbard never made any OTs. And once it is comprehensible that Hubbard was wrong about that it is a very short step to realize he was aware of that and hid it. And that leads to seeing that there are no clears and then we can see that auditing is not at all what it is presented as and that the reactive mind, engrams, overts and witholds and all the rest as presented by Hubbard simply don&#8217;t exist. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s one example of contrasting propaganda and indoctrination. There are many, many, many others.</p>
<p>We can present policies and quotes on the treatment of people against the Way to Happiness and other things and show that Scientology is a dangerous, harmful, abusive, and criminal organization.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jere Lull		</title>
		<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440620</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jere Lull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2021 03:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mikerindersblog.org/?p=2613061#comment-440620</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440332&quot;&gt;Alcoboy&lt;/a&gt;.

Any who don&#039;t know the story should search Navoo Expositor. There&#039;s a nice little wiki on that sad chapter of Americana.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440332">Alcoboy</a>.</p>
<p>Any who don&#8217;t know the story should search Navoo Expositor. There&#8217;s a nice little wiki on that sad chapter of Americana.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jere Lull		</title>
		<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440619</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jere Lull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2021 03:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mikerindersblog.org/?p=2613061#comment-440619</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440407&quot;&gt;Mockingbird&lt;/a&gt;.

Yeah. It&#039;d be a hoot to see Davey subjected to the sec checks he so liberally deals out to everyone else.  False Purpose Rundown, maybe? (A real one)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440407">Mockingbird</a>.</p>
<p>Yeah. It&#8217;d be a hoot to see Davey subjected to the sec checks he so liberally deals out to everyone else.  False Purpose Rundown, maybe? (A real one)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jere Lull		</title>
		<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440617</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jere Lull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2021 03:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mikerindersblog.org/?p=2613061#comment-440617</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440409&quot;&gt;Mockingbird&lt;/a&gt;.

Good idea getting audio/video proof of scientology&#039;s dealings with the City, but they&#039;d find SOME excuse to call it an infringement of their first Amendment rights, somehow trumping the state&#039;s &quot;Sunshine Laws&quot; that they so bully the government with.  Mark Bunker can&#039;t communicate to ANYONE without scn&#039;s attack lawyers filing a grievance against him.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440409">Mockingbird</a>.</p>
<p>Good idea getting audio/video proof of scientology&#8217;s dealings with the City, but they&#8217;d find SOME excuse to call it an infringement of their first Amendment rights, somehow trumping the state&#8217;s &#8220;Sunshine Laws&#8221; that they so bully the government with.  Mark Bunker can&#8217;t communicate to ANYONE without scn&#8217;s attack lawyers filing a grievance against him.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jere Lull		</title>
		<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440614</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jere Lull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2021 02:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mikerindersblog.org/?p=2613061#comment-440614</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Poor Clearwater and its residents.  The situation won&#039;t/can&#039;t improve until Davey&#039;s body finally succumbs to the indignities he visits upon it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Poor Clearwater and its residents.  The situation won&#8217;t/can&#8217;t improve until Davey&#8217;s body finally succumbs to the indignities he visits upon it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jere Lull		</title>
		<link>https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440609</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jere Lull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2021 02:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mikerindersblog.org/?p=2613061#comment-440609</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440207&quot;&gt;Mary Kahn&lt;/a&gt;.

The city is at a severe disadvantage as it&#039;s dealing in good faith while Davey &#038; his minions have no compunction against lying to forward his hidden agenda which doesn&#039;t need or particularly want Clearwater to be  flourishing.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.mikerindersblog.org/clearwaters-scientology-perception-problem/#comment-440207">Mary Kahn</a>.</p>
<p>The city is at a severe disadvantage as it&#8217;s dealing in good faith while Davey &amp; his minions have no compunction against lying to forward his hidden agenda which doesn&#8217;t need or particularly want Clearwater to be  flourishing.</p>
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