“Hi Theta Clear”

Hi RB!

“I believe most of us who have left Scientology have gone through various changes over time in regards to what we think about the whole damned subject. I have observed this in myself and in several others who have openly expressed themselves through this blog and other areas where Scientology happens to be the topic of interest.”

Yes, I am quite aware of the phenomena involved. See my reply to Foolproof on that.

“I’m sure most of us eventually reach the point where we just get fed up with it all and wonder why we’re still bothering to even look at anything that has to do with the subject.”

You are right about that. You will too, eventually. :))

“Do we really believe that anything we do or say is going to change anything? I can only speak for myself. Some days I do, some days I don’t.”

No invalidation intended, RB, but this problem with the CofS and the crazy fuck DM, is a manifestation of humans’ tendency towards “Cult-think”. Scn is but one example of this phenomena out of hundreds that exist today.

I am sure that you and others here firmly believe that DM is the problem or the “Why”, to use Scientologese. But I assure you he is not. The ones that are being “abused” DECIDED to get “abused”, plain and simple. W/out their “agreement” (even if unconsciously so) the Undue Influence is impossible.

Those with the tendency towards group-think or Cult-think, will never ever believe anything you (or Mike, or Ortega, or , or, or) say about DM even if you give them an entire book of documented evidence!!! They will always think that you are just an SP making Scn and god-like COB wrong.

It is not necessarily the constant exposure to this blog or anti CofS/DM propaganda that get others to wake up from the cultic state. They wake up when they are READY to wake up REGARDLESS of the amount of exposure they got. The cultish tendency is a disease that has nothing to do with any particular cult or cult leader. Therefore, all these efforts to expose DM’s abuses do not necessarily have the impact and reach that you might think they have.

Realize please, that you (we in general as posters) are not educating people on cult phenomena as such. You are attacking an individual and an institution; a different action. The cult members will not necessarily listen to you, as they might feel invalidated in their beliefs. Only the ones who have ALREADY woke up by themselves – through whatever process (by having been subjected to too many abuses; by having been educated on cult phenomena, etc) – will listen to you.

I can give you my OWN example. My “awakening” didn’t happen because all the “bad things” I read about LRH/Scn or the CofS/DM. It happened AFTER I got thoroughly educated on cult phenomena with the works of Steven Hassan and Margaret Singer. After this education, I realized that I had been on a cult for the last 30 years of my life!!! I was TOTALLY in shock with that realization. I couldn’t believe that a person thoroughly educated on Science and Scientific methodology, could be SO naive. But the cult phenomena has nothing to do necessarily with education and the level of IQ. It has to do with pushing the CORRECT buttons of our weaknesses.

Bottom line, what you believe is a workable effort from your part, is only an amusing activity for ALREADY ex-Scientologists to have a good time with, and act as a “group therapy session” for those still under the effect of the cult in terms of past wounds. But an “Effective Blow” ? I don’t think so, my friend. Please do not take it as an inval. Take it as some food for thought.

“Will the Scientology scheme continue after COB is no longer there. Who knows?”

I KNOW, RB. It WILL continue, rest assure. DM is not the “Why” as much as you, Mike and most posters here, believe he is.

“Crusade? I never looked at it as such.”

It was not meant as an Inval, though I can see how it might have sounded that way.

“I’m just pissed off over allowing someone else to lie to me and take my money and I know that the guy who did it would like nothing more than to have all of us just shut up and go away. I don’t plan to.”

DM doesn’t care one bit about you and what you do or write, believe me. Are you going to hold on to a grudge for the rest of your life? Does that have even a purpose to it? He didn’t take your money, you gave it to him. He didn’t lie to you; you believed everything he said w/out questioning him nor Scn as a subject. Do not send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee, for ALL of us as individuals.

“Does COB or anybody else inside the church actually listen to what I say? Who knows?”

They just don’t care, believe me. Your posts are incredible and educational for the ALREADY ex-Scientologists who are ALREADY out.

“It’s still fun and I would add, quite therapeutic, being able to express myself in the manner I do.”

On that we have NO disagreements at all. It is “therapeutic” to YOU, but not for long. You’ll get overrun soon enough. Fun? Incredible so, you are a great artist indeed.

“As far as Mike wasting his life doing what he’s doing; He’s the only one who can determine if that’s true or not.”

But of course, that he is the only one who can determine that. I want HIM to think about it as I DO care about him. Why else would I have made such comments?

“I do know that reading his blog helped me crawl out of a deep pit of confusion at the time I decided to leave the church and I’m grateful for that.”

We ALL are grateful for that, RB. I have nothing but praise for Mike, the man with the courage of dozens of men. My hat is off to him. And because I DO admire him, I want him to have the best life he could have. And I am not sure if continuing involved with anything from Scn is part of an ideal life. For me, it isn’t. So I put some food for thought on the table for him.

“I have seen others express similar gratitude towards him so I figure what he’s doing is not really much of a waste of a life.”

You missed my point, apparently, RB. My comments had nothing to do with gratitude or lack thereof. It was a point of personal survival. It was about help, not about criticism. You know me better than that.

“I’m certain this is only a part of his life and he’s enjoying the rest of it just as most of us are.”

Perhaps so.

“Why do any of us (yourself included) continue to post here and on other sites? Maybe it’s because we still have interest in the subject.”

And may be, just may be it is because we STILL feel hurt and injured, and are seeking a way to “blow charge”. We are seeking, may be, for the absent acknowledgements; the CORRECT indication of the CORRECT Bypassed charge. And thus, we don’t want to let go. And the more we try to hold on to it, the less charge we blow, and the more enturbulated one gets, even if unconsciously so.

” I suppose Scientology will continue to be interesting to us until we stop giving it our interest.”

My point exactly! But why to be interested in it in the first place? Wouldn’t it be because deep down we still believe in some parts of it, and still hold hopes that it can somehow guide us towards “freedom” ? Wouldn’t it be because we still have not found a proper replacement for it, so that we can then let go of the rest of it.

“I always enjoy reading your posts. They often spur me to look into areas I’d not yet considered as interesting.”

Thanks RB; most kind. I enjoy your posts as well, VERY much. They represent the un-seriousness in a sea of craziness!

“Thanks.”

Thank YOU!

Hi Theta Clear
I believe most of us who have left Scientology have gone through various changes over time in regards to what we think about the whole damned subject. I have observed this in myself and in several others who have openly expressed themselves through this blog and other areas where Scientology happens to be the topic of interest.
I’m sure most of us eventually reach the point where we just get fed up with it all and wonder why we’re still bothering to even look at anything that has to do with the subject.
Do we really believe that anything we do or say is going to change anything? I can only speak for myself. Some days I do, some days I don’t.
Will the Scientology scheme continue after COB is no longer there. Who knows?
Crusade? I never looked at it as such. I’m just pissed off over allowing someone else to lie to me and take my money and I know that the guy who did it would like nothing more than to have all of us just shut up and go away. I don’t plan to.
Does COB or anybody else inside the church actually listen to what I say? Who knows?
It’s still fun and I would add, quite therapeutic, being able to express myself in the manner I do.
As far as Mike wasting his life doing what he’s doing; He’s the only one who can determine if that’s true or not.
I do know that reading his blog helped me crawl out of a deep pit of confusion at the time I decided to leave the church and I’m grateful for that. I have seen others express similar gratitude towards him so I figure what he’s doing is not really much of a waste of a life. I’m certain this is only a part of his life and he’s enjoying the rest of it just as most of us are.
Why do any of us (yourself included) continue to post here and on other sites? Maybe it’s because we still have interest in the subject.
I suppose Scientology will continue to be interesting to us until we stop giving it our interest.
I always enjoy reading your posts. They often spur me to look into areas I’d not yet considered as interesting.
Thanks.

Foolproof : “As to Torres it is the first I have heard of his’ ‘transition out’…”

But in which strange world have you been living, Foolproof? The first one you’ve heard that has transited out? Come on man, I thought that you was a regular reader of Scn related blogs. Hundreds have already transited out!!! It has been happening for decades!!!

Just a few years ago we had several pro-Scn blogs and websites. In PT there is only MS2 (criminal Merrell Veneer’s site is part of MS2). And MS2 used to have several readers and commenters. At least 20-30/regular ones, and they posted almost every other day. Now they have about 2-5 posters, and publish an “article” every 2 or more weeks, and this just recently as up to some months ago, they were publishing every 1-2 months. The same 2-5 posters; a real ghost town!!!

Now, you said that your IQ (you Scientologists are always so delusional about your abilities. I know cause I was like that myself when I still believed in the crazy son of the bitch, LRH-Con man Hunbbard) was among the top 10%, didn’t you? So smart man/woman (I don’t know your gender), what does the above data tell you? It tells you that “Scientologists” are losing interest in Scn at a speed a lot greater than it was just 2 years ago!!!

Mike stopped believing in Scn (he supported LRH and Scn when he first created his blog), Rathbun as well. Geir Isene, Karen, and a bunch of other well know ex supporters of Scn and LRH have been transiting out for decades, and PUBLICLY so. The “Comm lag” (to use the scientologese language you love so much) from a Scientologist who left the CofS after cogniting on the many abuses, and publicly supported Scn through participation in blogs, etc; to an individual no longer interested in Scn, is about two years. That’s what it took most of those individuals including myself; 2 years.

So your quoted comment at the beginning of this reply, is just another solid evidence of the delusional that KSW Scientologists are. I used to be like you just a few years ago, although I must confess that I was never that naive as you are.

In two years, give or take, you’ll be asking yourself how on hell did you ever believed in Scn and LRH. So enjoy your 2-year vacation at dreamland, and get yourself a good therapist, cause you are going to need it when you finally wake up from your hypnotic dream state.

Peter, I’m glad you are happy and doing what YOU want in life rather than what others want you to do. Keep on keeping on!

Foolproof: I wasn’t commenting on YOUR I.Q. You do protest too much, methinks.

You don’t expect people to take what you write as being what you mean? That’s a pretty odd statement. You didnt say to do “Step A” — and what are these continuous present time overts you are asserting he is committing? Criticizing? Name calling?

And would “Millstone 1” then in your eyes be Miscavige’s church or the pre-Miscavige church? Your answer to that will probably be the fundamental (no pun intended) difference between your viewpoint and mine on the whole thing.

Actually Mike (Wynski), per (non-Scientology) test my IQ is in the top 0.1% of society and I left “Scientology” zombie mode in the 1980s when it no longer was “Scientology” as such.

Mike I would be quite happy if the target of my missive would just do the first step of “stop committing continuous present time overts”. I’ll let them off from the paying back of debts and humbly crawling to IJC and making amends etc. No, quite fine. Just that first step. Then we’d all be happy!

As a note to other commenters who took my A-E assigning of others literally I cannot of course enforce such as I am no longer anything to do with Miscavige’s church and of course – you shouldn’t take things literally!

Actually Espiando I did have a chuckle as to your use of the phrase “Millstone 2”, very inventive and as I say made me laugh. So well done for that at least.

Yes I wondered how long it would take before receiving such replies and again being labeled as (this time) a “zombie” and as part of a “quasi fascist fundamentalist” group (although I have no affiliation at all to M2), and even implying that I am doing OSA’s work for them now (when of course the opposite is more like the truth of this particular matter as I have pointed out)! I even begin to wonder with every quasi-fascist fundamentalist comment you make that you receive a nice little commendation from OSA in your (probably massive and gargantuan) Ethics files.

As to Torres it is the first I have heard of his’ “transition out” and I don’t give a hoot either way. And of course it was no surprise (to me anyway) as to who are making such replies either – running true to form and pattern, which admittedly is me somewhat sinking to the same level – but then, if I can be insulted right, left and center I do not see why I cannot shoot back a bit eh? You guys really should read a bit of Shakespeare, especially the line “The lady doth protest too much, methinks!”, which phrase, translated for zombies and members of quasi-fascist fundamentalist groups (of which you seem to be card-carrying members) reads better as the apt phrase of “the overt (again) doth speak loudest in accusation!”