Foolproof- you keep trying to separate Scientology from its people and actions- that is a ridiculous premise- the people and actions are the reason there is so much controversy. I do not begrudge anyone their right to believe in whatever they want to believe in- if you want to worship fuzzy kitten videos- have at it. However, when you harm others through words, actions and official church policies I DO have a problem with it. You cannot have Scientology without all of the issues that surround it. Unless the church discards disconnection, has actual services for anyone who wishes them without a monetary value on them, stops harassing and attacking people, has actual programs designed to help and not promote unattainable benchmarks at huge cost (I’m sorry but I don’t see ANY Scientologists flying around like Superman or being able to teleport) and allowed others to read the doctrine in its entirety in order to make an educated decision about what they are getting into, then Scientology will always be seen as a cult by outsiders.

So you are grasping at and misinterpreting one comment (on purpose because you don’t want to address the rest??)- I read dianetics and thought it was mediocre at best. It resembled a quasi-self help mishmash that had some parts in psychoanalysis (which I also do not like) and some parts in new age blather. Sorry I was not struck by Hubbard’s “insight” into the human condition. I was underwhelmed. I also would never pay for something that -since it’s being packaged as a church- seems like a really sleazy practice. The reading I did prior to posting was from Scientology’s own website as well as other sites that are not sponsored by Scientology and sites like this one. I read what was there to read. I looked at all of the information that I had access to (your church has a bad habit of not giving full disclosures and information about itself, which makes it kinda difficult to make an educated decision regarding some aspects). However, if you read my post below, you may also see why I have reached the opinion that I now hold.

The simple glaring fact that you cannot accept how other people may see things that you don’t (or won’t) acknowledge says a lot about the control this organization has over followers. The similarities are there, you just cannot accept them. Do some research with an open mind instead of pre-conceived notions and bias. I did research on Scientology (what was available) prior to coming to a conclusion. The moral and ethical deficits shown by your “church” are astounding. Attacking individuals with vitriolic hatred isn’t the way most churches operate. I read the “dossiers” your “church” gathered and more than one thing jumps out- there is no independent proof to back up any claims made by this group- I read police reports that don’t match the “facts” your group states, I looked at news footage that consisted of ranting and raving about bigotry and bias, I saw “Scientology henchmen” Harrass, stalk and berate people who were doing nothing more than expressing concern (or even just minding their own business). I fail to see any good in that. Even if there were good to be had in this group, the fact that it encourages and praises such behaviors is reprehensible and you should be ashamed to associate with the group. I wouldn’t.

So, what are these “Scientology tenets” that you seem to know then? Name some of the more basic ones. Have you ever read a book from Hubbard or experienced auditing or done a course or visited their website or even talked with a Scientologist? Or is your “knowledge” of Scientology simply based on reading anti-Scientology websites? I think you know the answer to that question.

I said 8 out of 10. You are stuck on one final event and you have no idea where scientology will end. But we DO know scientologists will en masses lie, destroy families, bankrupt themselves etc etc These are not things normal people do. These same people would NOT do these things if they were not in scientology.

This is cold, hard fact. I know you don’t like it, but you can’t alter reality that is so well documented.

Well it depends what “resemblance” you are talking about and you have studiously avoided the main one of the mass suicide. Your points are about as meaningful as suggesting that both groups wore uniforms or something. To suggest that Scientologists would commit mass suicide is totally ridiculous as you well know. Oh! How surreptitious you show yourself to be!

Final question: if Miscavige told the sea organization members that they would need to follow Hubbard and leave their bodies in order to reach higher levels of awareness, what do you think would happen? This is the scenario I worry about…

Mike,
I completely agree with your assessment. The similarity in circumstances are disturbingly clear and I believe they are dangerous. When you have a group who expresses blind obedience to one man then there is always the chance that things can go very badly very quickly. If Hubbard was still alive, I could easily see him enacting the same scenario as Jones if he felt threatened (the fact that he isolated himself and a core group of followers on a ship is very troubling) Luckily for all, he no longer has the power to enact this….however, there is still an amount of blind, dangerous following. When such a man (in this case Miscavige) sees it all falling apart, people can (and often do) die. I worry that such an end is possible, and just pray that some get out and get the help they need to break free of this poisonous situation. I think that many who get into Scientology do so with the belief that they are helping others, but they can’t see past the propaganda to the rotten core beneath. I know that Jones portrayed himself as someone who could change society for the better- and in the beginning he had some success. However, giving one man blind obedience without question NEVER turns out well. I hope foolproof takes the time to read about cults and sees the correlations. But I doubt he will…
I studied cults when I was finishing my masters degree and this situation is very scary. Miscavige shows all of the traits of someone who can enact such a scenario.

As for you juxtaposing Jonestown with Scientology this is pure hyperbole and nonsense. I think even if you asked Brian or Wynski (no, actually not Wynski), let’s say Ms. P – what is the scale between 1-10 of Scientologists emulating Jonestown their answers would be a straight 0.

Well, I would have probably put it at a 2. Until I had the great pleasure of spending some time with a survivor of Jonestown (she was a “purchaser” who was in the capital city buying the food for the compound…). I raise by scale concerning the People’s Temple to an 8 after that. The similarities of technique between Jim Jones and Hubbard and now Miscavige are remarkable. Even down to the “safepointing” (Jones had spent a lot of time schmoozing Willy Brown and the police in Oakland and SFO) before heading off to build his utopian society of peace and love and holistic living. They also had front groups to help in the field of education, drug abuse and immorality. In the end, Jones began giving daily lectures that everyone had to listen to and when they were not being delivered live they listened to recordings. He convinced his followers that the only hope for mankind was the solutions he was offering and the evil outside their bubble was seeking to destroy them. They even had “disconnection” policies for the “disaffected.”

You are wading into unknown waters here Foolproof. Obviously you have NOT taken the time to find out about the People’s Temple and simply dismiss it as “scientology bears no resemblance” — oh how ignorant you show yourself to be.

No, I think you will find that most people reading the comments who know something of Scientology as a subject (not its people or Church actions) know that essentially what I state is correct, even from those who have some axe to grind against the organization or the Church or personal bias. Then there are those who don’t really know what they are talking about and just accept what they read here as gospel, some of which is true but mostly it is hyperbole and exaggeration and are just here because they are given a platform. And then there are those who feel they can’t or shouldn’t support my statements – again mostly out of personal bias based on their chagrin with some of the staff or the Church. For these people even if I stated that 2+2=4 then certain individuals would gainsay it just because I stated it.

As for you juxtaposing Jonestown with Scientology this is pure hyperbole and nonsense. I think even if you asked Brian or Wynski (no, actually not Wynski), let’s say Ms. P – what is the scale between 1-10 of Scientologists emulating Jonestown their answers would be a straight 0. This theme of Jonestown/Scientology is often repeated here to try and scare or “electrify” people into thinking that this could happen with Scientologists and that “something should be done” (shock horror), but then pigs might also fly!