Thanks rogerHornaday, I’m happy to hear that you enjoyed listening to Ikue Asazaki, she is one of my favorite Japanese singers. I’ve been listening to a lot of S. Korean stuff recently as well, and, strangely enough, Spanish classical guitar (strange, only because these genres of music don’t have much in common with each other). When I first heard the Obukuri-Eeumi song, I wasn’t sure I liked it, but soon after, I was watching the Samuri Champloo anime series with my son and Ikue Asazaki sang this song at a very dramatic crucial point where one of the main characters almost meets his demise and I almost cried, it was so fitting and beautiful. I love it when people introduce me to new and interesting music, so I’m very happy I was able to share something new with you. Thanks for letting me know that you liked it. 🙂 – T.J.

Thanks for the lead on a new music experience. I just listened to Ikue Asazaki sing the song
you mentioned and she knocked my socks off! I’m adding her music to my playlist. It’s perfect for the long hours I spend at my drawing table.

“Let’s Sell these people a piece of blue sky” and Russell Miller’s ‘LRon Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?’ are two of the best books one can read on the history of the CoS and Ron, IMO. For anyone who is having difficulties shedding the ideas and tentacles of the church, these two books can help give a new perspective. You can always take it for what it’s worth (to you) and it won’t hurt to read them. Promise.

One of my favorite Japanese singers is Ikue Asazaki – if you have a chance, listen to her singing Obukuri-Eeumi from Samuri Champloo anime, it can be found on Youtube.

Or check out a faster song, by a group of talented kids: babymetal: イジメ ダメ ゼッタイ

There are always going to be those who think that “state of clear” and “OT” are things that exist, and others that firmly believe that they do not. Neither will easily change the other person’s mind. It seems to me, as an outsider, that over time, people tend to learn, read, and discover more about Scientology and as a result start changing their beliefs on the effectiveness of “the Tech” and states of being.

Here on this blog are mostly ex-Scientologists, so by definition, they do not believe in the validity of many of the concepts. They are disillusioned. Therefore, discussion is along these lines. However, there is a high level of tolerance for other views, but one should not expect blanket acceptance of that which the majority here do not believe.

If your sense of self is tied up with the concept of a state of being, known as “clear” to you, then you may feel defensive, understandably. No one is attacking you personally, they just don’t believe in the concept. I think the point is, there is no scientific proof that such a state is proven, measurable, or considered a valid condition by society at large or by the medical or scientific community, and for good reasons.

Feel free to think of yourself in any terms you like, to label yourself as whatever you choose, as you want to do, but it’s not reasonable to expect others to agree. Live and let live, though.

Secretfornow, isn’t it funny that Scientologists are supposed to be “the most ethical people on the planet” – and then you find out what the people in charge are actually doing? So many people joined for the right reasons, wanted to “save mankind” and become more able and aware themselves, then to find out what their “church” is doing, is so unbelievable to them that they refuse to acknowledge it, they close their eyes and pretend it doesn’t exist… or they are so far into conditioning not to look at entheta or anything negative that they are unable to see… they deny it even to themselves, because they don’t want it to be true. Or do most people believe that “the end justifies the means”?

Roger, one need not disparage others in order to make a point. Your first para was a clear opinion. The second one was unnecessary. Hopefully real maturity will guide you into letting others be whatever they want to be, think however they want to think. I went clear a long time ago, got very positive life effects which have carried down to this day. “Drab self image”? Hardly.

“Wisdom, forgiveness, honesty, justice” I agree with your spiritual ‘attributes’ because those are qualities that counter a selfish, materialistic point of view. “Clear” and OT” are fanciful, imprecise concepts used to acquire money from people who seek to delude themselves about attaining higher states of consciousness. Obviously there is no ‘clear’ or ‘OT.’

If somebody wants to call themselves such in order that their drab self-image is enhanced, putting lipstick on a pig as it were, then maybe we shouldn’t begrudge them of that pitiful indulgence. Unless of course they seek to enlist others into their depravity. Then as mature adults we simply must speak out.

thegman77, that they are NOT true is what makes them false. As far as proof? The burden is on the one making the claim of “clear” & “OT”. NOT the person calling bull shit.

I could ask you, “On what basis do you think that warp powered unicorns don’t exist on Earth”?