I agree with all you say, Mike. OT is as OT does; not what a cert on the wall says.

I know a person on OT VII who was having a 2D with person A, and then went on a tour to tout his poetry and had sex with person B and person C while on tour, while keeping person A on the line back home, and he lied to all three of them about the others and so was promiscuous and lying with all three. And all the while auditing on OT VII and acting pious and holier than thou.

And I know other Scns who will cheat you or deliver a bad exchange level to their employees and/or public, with the justifier that it is to “get up the Bridge’ and so “the end justifies the means.” I only asked about DM’s case state cuz I was surprised he was even Clear or above. I thought he avoided getting auditing at all costs as most SP’s do and so was surprised to read that he was “on OT VII.” and the fact that he is not auditing on VII tells me he is behaving as an SP does, which is that they don’t show up for session, per LRH. I don’t know whether Dm gets case gain, but one of the marks of an SP per the tech is that they can’t make case gain because of being out of valence and thus unable to as-is stuff.

Asking about anyone’s case level is sort of irrelevant. I dont think he is a Grade II completion…. He is “On OT VII” like the vast majority of people who are “on OT VII”. Old NOTs, new NOTs, Mayo NOTs, blue NOTs it all addresses the same thing and is really not a whole hell of a lot different. But certs on a wall and the status of “case level” is really meaningless. How the person lives his life and conducts himself is a far better indicator of where they are “at” than “case level.” I have met some tremendously incompetent, insecure and borderline crazy “OT VIIIs” and some people who have done Life Repair who demonstrate more OT abilities and behavior than the vast majority of “OT Cert bearers”.

I dont think discussions about anyone’s “case level” is fruitful. What does it matter? The only place it is worth anything is to give you some false status within the church. Other than that, those certs and levels might as well be issued by Parker Brothers along with their monopoly money.

Interesting about Valley Org, Pepper. :Can you shed more info on the Valley Org going dark after GAT II?

Mike, So if DM was “on OT VII, but never audited it” then he is not “on” OT VII. So his case level would be NOTS. But then the next question is, is he a New OT V or is it “old OT V”? Or as the SO said, did he get “Mayo NOTS”? I bought into the Mayo as the Devil Incarnate thing, but now after looking, researching, I see Mayo was probably the best auditor/CS around. Which explains why DM got rid of him.

Yes, and I know of one big whale in Las Vegas who doneated till he was flat broke and they still came and leaned on and harrassed him to continue donating to the Vegas Ideal Org and Rennos, and they got more from him by saying his name would be on the plaque. Four or more years later and his name still is not on the plaque and he can hardly pay his bills he is so strapped from over-donating when he was long since tapped out. Promises broken by the church so easily without a thought about it.

And you’re right that next they take your kids and once they have them, the threat is disconnection if you don’t tow the line.

While I have every hope that the Charities Commission will be able to beat off another application by the church of scientology I do feel that the official recognition as a religion gives them more traction; I also agree that the finding was inevitable. The problem is the Charity Commission guidelines include “spreading a religion” as a charitable act. This really needs to be removed as other, legitimate, churches can still have charity status for their genuine out reach programs that really do benefit society. The church of scientology lawyers will play this one big time to say that’s what they are in the business of doing, spreading a religion, ergo they should have charity status and if denied will claim religious discrimination.

I have written to my MP expressing my concerns and suggesting it is high time we removed spreading a religion from the Charities Commissions guidelines, something the Charities Commission has already told me will require and act of Parliament. Hopefully other people will do the same.

Well stated! Exactly!

Espiritu, thank you so much for your advices. I thought of this actually this is why I don’t spread the story. I really appreciate your caring.
It is quite unbelievable to think that this Church that is supposed to take care of reactive minds in order to save the planet, not only doesn’t do it but gets specialised in hunting people who haven’t done anything to them in the first place….and to think that the staffs who do this will end up being beaten up by the Devil Master…..Do Sps ever win?

That’s CAPTAIN He Who Shall Not Be Named!

Sure, Sea Org contracts are completely unenforcable. And the only “enforcement” of Freeloader Bills (which they have basically stopped issuing since it was exposed that they just made up arbitrary numbers and then discounted them) is that “you are not eligible for services” unless you paid it off. The church itself has tried to defend them in court by saying they never do anything to enforce collection. See Schippers case.