AA literature does not say that leaving AA itself will cause disease, hospitalization or death, only that continued alcoholic drinking might do so.

Another old saying in AA is when someone goes on and on and on about what he, she or they did to them they might be told to “Get off the pity-pot.” Good advice imo.

Peridot wrote:
““Knowledge and control and responsibility all go hand in glove. These things are all together…In order to know about something, you must have some control over it – some slight control – to know about it. In order to have control over something, you must have some responsibility for it. In order to be responsible for it, you must know something about it. And we sort of have a brand-new triangle, composed of knowledge, control and responsibility as three corners.” – LRH”

One of the reasons i love coming to this blog is for the odd LRH quote former members drop. Like this one! It’s completely wrong. I had thought of a counter example that disproves the claim in the second sentence before i’d even finished it. Likewise for the responsibility claim in the third sentence. Finding stuff like this validates my rejection of scientology and my opinion that extracting any edible nuts of knowledge requires washing away all the shit it’s embedded in. I’ll look elsewhere for something to consume.

Priscilla,
I think you make some great points. I do have multiple friends who’ve attained decades of sobriety thanks to AA or church-based off-shoots. I also know a few who’ve done Celebrate Recovery.
What I noticed is that when you get a group of people together who are all hurting, who are more likely to do things (good or bad) to a greater extreme, then people change their life – they/we become as zealous about “the program” as we were about our drug of choice.

I’ve been to some GREAT groups, which tended to be in larger cities with senior members who have also had therapy and distance from the mindset any of us get into when we’re addicted to a substance, a person or even an organization. I think that’s why many in recovery are drawn to this subject matter – we understand that prison of the mind that makes one feel powerless and then likely to hand the reins to someone/something else.

Ive been in some extremely dysfunctional groups (both AA & CR) that were, in fact, VERY cult like! And it tended to be groups where members were younger, newer to recovery and so while they weren’t actively using/drinking, they were just as fanatical about the group as they were prior with their addiction.

Todd, One of my closest friends and “bonus-dad” has nearly 30yrs recovery and would likely tell his story almost identically to you. When I met him in a program, it was as you described and was an amazing experience.

In more recent times, much research has been done on the clinical efficacy of such programs, why the relapse percentages are so consistently high in most any program (12-Step, therapy-based, etc.). Recent research has also shown the surge in Behavioral Modification approach and its associated approaches as well as understanding the impact of Neurotransmitters and how to change the “path” that lead many to repeat the same negative behaviors. The efficacy rates therein tend to be markedly higher and help not only with addiction, but mental health issues, unhealthy patterns and so on.

So there are definitely many Addiction Med Dr’s who now understand that 12-Step isn’t THE tool in the toolbox, but one of many and what works for some won’t work for all. I’ve had experience with both sides and the latter was DEFINITELY far more effective for me vs the former. The other concern – which is a HUGE issue with Narconon, but also many 12-Step programs is that it can easily become “the blind leading the blind” because you have groups of people addressing brokenness in differing stages, different tools and widely varying emotional maturity-levels. So I can attest some groups become scarily cult-like. That led me to research it to death and seek help from an Addiction Med Dr. (board certified specialist) so the approach was more individualized and therefore, more effective for me… it’s also the Analyst in me – I research everything. ;P

ALL of that to say, I think you and Priscilla both had valid experiences, just on varying sides of the coin that is the recovery industry. That’s what makes Narconon SO dangerous… when people are genuinely trying to do the right thing and extended family is desperate- it creates a vacuum that bad-actors like Narconon go in and exploit. They aren’t the only ones doing it, but because “what works for you…” along with false success rates, they are extremely enticing to desperate, hurting people.

PS – Mike I am SO thankful to hear of investigation into kickbacks, as who knows what else might become apparent as authorities focus on just one aspect.
The proactive steps you, Leah, Aaron, etc. are taking, then spawning more into becoming tangibly involved (Stefani Hutchison, Kat DeLaRue and SO many I don’t mean to omit) is SO powerful. I think back to how exciting Going Clear coming out was… the frustration of authorities & media complicit in ignorance of abuse – how it feels “nothing ever changes.” And yet look at where things are today… a foundation to help, resources and the therapy community beginning to understand, etc. I don’t know that any of it could have foreseen this even just 5yrs ago when GC was a massive undertaking!
THANK YOU!

“Alcoholics Anonymous are – those people have my respect, believe me, because how can anybody live with that many losses? That they stay in and continue to control, to a marked degree, a zone of almost total irresponsibility of that character is an attestation of great stick-to-ivity and great character. And my hat’s off to them.”

“Knowledge and control and responsibility all go hand in glove. These things are all together…In order to know about something, you must have some control over it – some slight control – to know about it. In order to have control over something, you must have some responsibility for it. In order to be responsible for it, you must know something about it. And we sort of have a brand-new triangle, composed of knowledge, control and responsibility as three corners.” – LRH

There are dozens upon dozens of AA slogans. Current members derisively refer to ex-members as “dry drunks,” because they no longer attend meetings or work the steps. The major indoctrination is that if you are an alcoholic, you literally cannot function without AA. That is, you will drink, and “to drink is to die” or you will face “jails, institutions, and death.”

AA says “the great obsession of every abnormal drinker to to someday control and enjoy his drinking…science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn’t done so yet.”

Well, since the first meetings in 1935 and the publication of the “big book” in 1939, there have been major breakthroughs. But most AA members will never tell people that.

It appears the “disease” concept of AA has been widely accepted by the medical establishment as the result of political lobbying, not the scientific method. But many people believe, to the depth of their being, that alcoholism is a progressive and fatal disease.

That is all because of Bill Wilson and Dr. William Silkworth. Their words are taken as literal truth by AA members and read at every meeting.

It seems now that problem drinking is really a matter of behavior modification, or unlearning bad behavior and beliefs. So there is really no need to substitute drinking for anything, including AA meetings and the steps.

This is (obviously) a sore subject for me. I was in AA for years and it was, essentially, a complete waste of time and induced much misery.

I have been out nearly a year and – surprise – not in jail or a psyche ward.

But AA members will attack and demean anyone who criticizes the program. They will go from zero to sixty in no time, because I am pretty much saying the basis for their time and effort and belief is false.

There are so many similarities between AA and other mind control groups. Toxic positivity is one, as is spread the message.

It is quite a feat to unlearn years of indoctrination, but a therapist has helped, as has hearing about experiences of other ex-members.

Of course, I cannot speak for Mike. I was just trying to let you know that IMHO, I don’t think you did anything wrong at all and ..

I’ve been posting here for a long time and it is just my opinion, but I would guess that Mike was not upset with you in the least bit and I would also guess he enjoyed your posts as much as I did and

I enjoyed them plenty!

I went to a 12 step group (NA – not AA) and in the beginning (for about 3 months), it really helped me in the following way:

It was great to hear from people who had beaten back their addiction (although most all of them only stayed “clean” for a time and then went back to their addiction). It gave me strength to think that if they could do it, there was hope for me and maybe these people could help me do the same thing.

But after 3 months, it got incredibly repetitive and boring and I had to face the facts that for me …, it was a terrible waste of time. I stayed “clean” for 22 years and would periodically go back to a meeting just to see if anything changed. Nothing changed. IMHO, it was always a complete waste of time because people just repeated the same old things over and over again. I couldn’t stand it anymore.

Then one day, some guy came to a meeting and he spoke for 20 minutes about how bad he felt because his cat had died of old age.

The meetings only lasted for 60 minutes and everyone – on average – knew that meant they could talk for about 3 minutes to give other people a fair chance to speak.

After this guy had been speaking for 20 minutes, some lady finally stood up and told him words to the effect …

“I’m sure we all feel very sorry for you that your cat died. I’m sure that most all of us know what that is like and how painful it is for you. But this meeting is only 60 minutes long and so far, you have been speaking for 20 minutes and that is just not fair to other people who want a chance.

I might not even say anything to you, but you are speaking about something that has nothing to do with the subject matter of this meeting. It is completely off topic and I must ask you to stop now and give other people a chance to talk.

The guy threw his hands up in the air and let out a howl of anguish and ran out of the meeting. I’m sure most everyone there felt terrible about the entire incident.

But that was the last 12 step meeting I ever attended and I would never go back again.

Hey Priscilla, I’ve been posting here for a very long time and I would bet dollars to donuts that Mike is not upset with you in the least.

Quite the contrary, I would wager he was very pleased with your posts. I know that I certainly was.

Please come back and tell us more of your experiences?

Very nice post Sarita. It’s always great to hear from someone who saw this shit with their own eyes.

@Todd Cray, I appreciate your viewpoint and recounting of your experiences concerning AA. When I read it, it made me think of experiences people have in Toastmaster clubs. These are all around the world to help people combat stage fright and become more skilled at a running a meeting and keeping it on-time.

The experience one is going to have in Toastmasters is hugely influenced by the people in their individual club. I am sure, similar for joining the Lions Club chapter in one’s community. It will be different from a Lions Club in different community.

A mix of good and bad, influenced by the character and education of the people in leadership roles within that particular club or chapter. Frankly, this applies to Scientology as well. I only ever had excellent experiences in auditing (Scientology 1:1 counseling). Being auditor-trained, I knew what to look for and I consider I have an educated perspective what a session looks like when the tech is “in” and the auditor (counselor) is operating off the Auditor’s Code, which is really the code of a civilized human being.

There are many positive parts of my experiences in Scientology that I take with me. What prompted me to leave was I hit a Law of Diminishing Returns point where the bad outweighed the good in such a stunning and irreversible way. I had to say (as so many have): “Enough already.” Appreciate your remarks here.