Pepper – in reply to your comment re the generation gap: Yes, I can see that it would and probably does exist. However, I think the guy who stated that people who came into Scientology after 1984 don’t know anything is a bit extreme and I wouldn’t state that. There is certainly something of a technical gap (now) and imo this was caused by a) the deliberate removal of all that experience as the years advanced (staff wastage and being thrown out), b) the blind leading the blind “policy” invented by COB, which was a complete fallacy – it was simply an excuse to throw out the trained staff to make sure that all that experience could not be passed on generation to generation or to argue or at least point out to others the falsity of his stuff (3 swing F/Ns being the obvious example), c) poor course supervision and internships (resulting from a and b) and probably a few more things along this line.Executive interference with C/Sing also. The PRD was also used extensively to make top-flight auditors and technical staff(and people) and this has also dropped out.

But then after saying all that how are you going to argue when you say something is technically false when the guy you are arguing with says he will hit you over the head if you disagree or point out the HCOB violation, as is the case since about the early 1990s?

In a nutshell what I am saying is that no one can now say “flunk” when the auditor in training interrupts the PC’s itsa line. They don’t say anything now. I doubt many supervisors or cramming officers would even be up to spotting it. If they do spot it they refer you a drill that has been invented by someone in Compilations Unit, essentially doing what the experienced people did before. Some of the ideas of GAT1 were ok but the main crime overall was getting rid of the people (thetans) who could make a decision about something e.g. was that command delivered with good TR1 or not? Are his assessment TRs out or not? Was that an Instant Read or not? (We won’t mention F/Ns here – ha!) etc etc.. All that experience has been moved out of the Orgs. It has been a gradual thing but ever-accelerating. So it is more of a training/experience gap – it just happens to be generational by default. And I have seen with my own eyes the difference as I train people now from all generations.

Most old timers are quite mellow and understanding and not extreme at all, except for their understanding of the workability of the tech, as they have seen it produce miracles and wish to defend this.

+ 100 Hallie Jane

DollarMorgue, sorry this took me so long. Haters is not a label, it’s a fact, some people hate Scn. I have heard that clearly expressed quite a few times. I’m not regging anyone to change their view, I’m trying to express mine. I did not get that Dan was saying that someone’s suffering was “their problem” and I certainly don’t feel that way. No one implied HUGE wins. After auditing for years and years and years, I feel frustrated and deeply heart broken, that the average person, coming in for help, including staff, did not get the best that Scn had to offer. It really pisses me off. I have witnessed wonderful wins, handling people, for 40 years, that’s just my experience, so people who think Scn is 100% shit probably won’t want to hear it, but it is, nonetheless, my personal experience. I object to people being called delusional or koolaid if they feel Scn has benefited them, it’s arrogant and rude. That’s ridicule, not an opinion. Everyone should of course tell their truth and when all the negative has been unloaded, at least check for positives. That’s perspective and that’s the truth too. .

“…could have been demonstrated 30 years ago…”

I think it would have, but it’s happening today because of the revolution in communication technology – we can all talk to each other now, and we couldn’t then. All we could do then was try to scrape up some money to print some pamphlets to put on cars or whatever, and maybe reach a few people. In 1984, Scientology could take out a full-page ad in USA today and drown us all out.

Today, all I’d have to do is touch the “video” button on my cell phone if some asshole tried to harass me, and within minutes of the encounter, it’s on a 24-hour TV station with a worldwide audience (youtube). I could post the link here and at many other websites, and anybody and everybody could see what assholes Scientologists are for themselves. You wouldn’t have to take my word for it – Here, see the Squirrelbusters for yourselves!

Could you imagine how things would have gone after that little twat Miscavige fucked the missions, if the internet of today existed then?

Nobody has take our word for it anymore. *That* is why it’s happening now, not 30 years ago IMHO.

Cars, sounds like you need to switch from Depends to Definitelys! (rimshot) (sorry 🙂 )

Swampland4Sale,

DollarMorgue was not addressing you – it was for Hallie Jane. In fact, Dollar defended you. Read it again.

Sorry Dollar, I don’t mean to speak for you. I know you are quite able to speak for yourself!

Hi Foolproof,

I don’t wish to enter into the whole “KA” argument but I would like to let you know that I do know a few people who were in Scientology since the 1970’s, Apollo service, trained under LRH, were SO staff for over 30 years, and are STILL IN. Not only that, they support and encourage DM’s products of discovering “source.” Go figure. I cannot explain it, and I am not qualified to since I am ‘late on the chain’, being much more of a newcomer. I got in and busy with Scientology after LRH was long gone.

I do find the whole generational gap interesting here on this blog. And there definitely is one. People who were in Scn prior to the early 1980’s and people in came in later. There is even one guy who posts here who frequently says that people who came into Scn after 1984 don’t know anything about Scientology (and he thinks that’s why they are still ‘in’ too). I find that a little bit off since I studied and practiced Scn myself for years, and have met a number of ‘old timers’ over the years. This is a little off topic but I just wanted to say something about that. It’s something that piques my interest.

Lurkness,

Thank you for that data, very much appreciated. I have noted the phone numbers and web site and will use them for future reference.

Foolproof, I would have to agree with you.

Everything in the world evolves. Plants, cats, one-celled organisms, people and organizations. One may assume that they all evolve from good to better, but in reality some evolve into something completely different. Even into something greedy self-absorbed and without compassion.

The Scientology that existed in 1972 when I entered its orbit, has not existed for over 25 years. The intention of the people engaged in it in 1972 is different from the intentions and ideals espoused today – they just are.

What I am curious about is why there appears to be this movement or desire to name SCN as bad or terrible or destructive. One single slashing statement that deals with “it” once and for all. Scientology is not the buildings or the people, no more so than Catholicism is the Vatican, St. Patrick’s or the Pope. Logically there has to have been good in both organizations, otherwise they would not have lasted as long as they did. People do not defend evil from the get go – unless they are mad.

I have known people who were good Catholics who said emphatically that all that mush about priests and children were all media lies. They could not have their religion being associated with that sort of evil — but it happened. And eventually these generally good people could no longer turn away from the truth

Some have loved SCN wholeheartedly – like I have – because of the good they saw in it. Being in the “old” GO I saw the good, the bad and the ugly. I saw the heroic fights, the covert ops and the slide into robotic compliance. The SCN that I loved passed with LRH. Not the technology, that’s still here. But the heart and soul. It died and what was left of it was shoved into a robot’s body and kept alive to march on to the growing sounds of cha-ching.

Lets agree that LRH was no saint — for the record. That there were lies, and bad ideas and WTF moments that have left many of us scratching our heads for 30 years.

However, there are many of us who believe in what he did – because of direct personal experience – so this belief is not going to change. For those who were hurt and mistreated – I’m not really sure what can be said. People created unbearable situations. People abused other staff, including children. People came up with crazy ideas and enforced others to carry them out or else.

Not one building or book or idea ever did any of these things. Just stupid selfish self-absorbed, sons-of-bitches, who saw an opportunity to control others and make money and did it.

Nothing is immune from evolution. Everything changes. But it’s not all on Nature. People have made a mess of what SCN could have been. People can fix it, ignore it, run from it — all options are open and okay. Personally I just don’t think banging on about how bad it all was is getting us anywhere. But then I may be wrong — the number of comments on this post seems to measure the true degree of our feelings. So maybe it’s a necessary part of the healing process. In that case – fire away.

Odd

Correct. However, I don;t know why you are addressing this to me. I NEVER stated that I knew anothers mind or subjective experiences. I have only stated facts as they exist in the physical universe and comments about such. You either haven’t really read what I wrote or, have me confused with someone else. But, I understand. Stating facts doesn’t always change peoples minds. Look at those still following DM. Facts don;t matter. It was/is the same for those who follow/followed LRH. Marty R. covered the possible mental reasons for that quite well at one point on his blog. WELL worth a read.