Miscavige is most certainly mentally ill.

Mick, I don’t want to discourage you or imply that I don’t think you can have a meaningful conversation with a Scientologist, just that it’s likely to be hard going, and unpredictable as to what level of interaction you can actually have with any one particular individual. One could run into anything from the most defensive hardcore thought-stopping believer, to an under-the-radar type practically looking for someone to finally come out to. I’ve been trying to figure out how to have an opportunity to interact with some current Scientologists myself, but I no longer have any Scientology connections (one of my last ones, ended with one of the infamous deaths) other than some exes and indies, and it is getting very hard to find an org or mission that you could just walk in to.

I think Hassan’s book (which I’m only just starting to work through) is great because it outlines what’s currently known about how to be influential rather than confrontational with people, which provides the best chance of having an impact, or at least of having an interaction that might be revealing and that doesn’t turn hostile. It’s actually more focused on doing interventions with members of groups, and while you’ll gain a lot of understanding through reading it, particularly one early chapter, if you really want to understand the mindset thoroughly you will also want to read some of the earlier works as well.

PeaceMaker, I’m sure you’re right and they wouldn’t really open up to anyone on the outside. Would certainly be an interesting conversation though.

I think I might get Hassan’s book after I’m done with Going Clear. Would help people like me understand that type of mindset a little more.

Scientology refers to general members as their “public,” in contrast to those who work for them as contract staff or Sea Org. “Internal public” would just be a way of additionally clarifying that term to avoid confusion with the actual general public outside the organization.

Mick, I share your curiosity, so I’m going to respond to yet one more of your comments.

Back in the day I used to rub elbows with quite a few Scientologists, including some famous and even now infamous ones. Since personal knowledge and some experience had given me a very skeptical take on Hubbard and Scientology, I never really thought to try to have too deep a conversation with really involved members about it, though I also think that was also long enough ago that they felt a bit more free to talk and give something of a personal opinion than they do know.

I suspect that nowadays, with the intense indoctrination and the reinforcement of thought-stopping techniques (Regraded Being often exemplifies that), you’d have trouble getting much more out of a Scientologist than generic “I’m more me” type of wins, and the old “try it for yourself” or “read a book” lines. Remember, on top of everything else they’re not allowed to talk to you about their “case,” which even limits their sharing of personal anecdotes.

Have you ever tried to talk to Mormon missionaries or Jehovah’s Witnesses who come to your door? I always find that awkward, and at that I think they’re still freer to engage with you than a CofS member would be.

It goes back to the old irony, that you’ll probably get more and better information talking to an ex-scientologist.

But it would be an especially interesting exercise to take on particularly given the recent material and books (like Steve Hassan’s) about how to most effectively engage with people of fixed ideologies, and “true believers.”

Jen, a “public” is simply a identifiable human group (demographic) that is targeted by advertisers.

E.g. The female teen public is targeted by the cosmetics companies to sell them lipstick.

Mick, the common wisdom that you’ll hear repeated on this, is that COB Miscavige and his lieutenants just have to follow the Hubbard “scripture” that forms their playbook, and that they can’t adapt. My analysis is that is effectively true, though there are some typical twists, such as that Miscavige has introduced a certain level of change in some areas.

I always look for common-sense corroboration and reality checks, and in regards to CofS’ organizational inflexibility, I think we can observe all the details like the organizational “central files” that are still paper and the associated policies that tie orgs to sending out enormous amounts of expensive paper mail propaganda to wrong and duplicate addresses when they can’t even pay their staff or buy toilet paper. There is just not normal organizational logic to it, which seems confounding.

The other factor that I think is not discussed enough but is probably very real, is that among Miscavige and his (much abused) executive staff that includes many old Hubbard loyalists, there are still beliefs that somehow following the path set out by Hubbard will lead to a sort of religious salvation in the end, whether it is by the Commodore himself returning in reincarnated form or through some turn of events that finally drives the masses into the orgs. Scientology is in its own odd way driven by a version of the same sort of end-times illogic that underlay Jim Jones’ People’s Temple (of Jonestown, Guyana “kool aid” mass suicide infamy), Heaven’s Gate and the Branch Davidians. They will keep doing what they believe that they are mandated to do, or go down still true to the cause.

Also, in keeping with dynamics of the disintegration of other organizations, I think we’re seeing a winnowing down of Scientology to the hardest core of true believers, or at least of those unwilling to abandon the group. It doesn’t make sense in the big picture, and yet there is a certain sort of circling-the-wagons mentality that can often be observed as religions dwindle.

And I agree with you that what is really important is to see an end to the abuses, as soon as possible. I don’t think that Scientology’s can be counted on to make rational decisions, but bringing pressure to bear will hasten the day when something finally happens.

I always thought Isaac was a little too full of himself. The nerve of him dying as if he isn’t needed to defend his leader. Oh well, some people are just too selfish.