Kemist : “It is not defeatist to understand that you do not have complete control over your life… It’s a fact that certain experiences teach you, in no uncertain terms.”

I am sorry Kemist, but I can possibly share that viewpoint. Of course that we do not have – at the moment – complete control over our lives; but the virtue lies in constantly seeking such control, and in never becoming a victim of our circumstances. In short, never become a conformist with our situations in life. For me, the REAL definition of a Scientologist is “someone who is a willing victim of life”.

Kemist : “These experiences also teach you humility, compassion and the importance of doubt.”

I have all of those as well, and a lot more than the average person have, as much arrogant as that might sound. You missed my point for a SECOND time. I DO have compassion for the ones who are suffering from Disconnection as well as I have compassion for those who misguidedly decided to disconnect from their love ones for religious reasons. The apparent difference between you and me ( and among others here and me), is that my compassion does not makes me blind to the REALITY of the situation : that those who decided to disconnect have HEAVY moral and ethical issues in their lives. And the more you decide to become blind to that reality, the more difficult would become your task of helping them.

It would become more difficult as you are going the “you are being a poor victim” route, instead of the “you need to regain your self-respect and code of honor” route. DM is of no consequence here. I repeat, DM is of NO CONSEQUENCE here, as much as you (possibly, cause I don’t know for sure) and other posters here LOVE to assign DM an authorship he really never had. But if that’s the game you, Mike and others here wants to play, so be it; who am I to mess with your games in life?

Kemist : “You think there are no excuses for disconnection.”

I NEVER EVER said that; you TOTALLY assumed it. Reasons for Disconnection DO exist, but NEVER about religious beliefs; NEVER, EVER.

Kemist : “Let’s take a step back from the scientology experience for one moment.”

Ok

Kemist : “I have good friends who have two kids. One of them has a severe psychiatric problem. Medicated, he can control himself and have a normal life. Unmedicated, he becomes a violent, unpredictable and dangerous person, prone to bursts of violence to himself and others. Later, when he became better with proper treatment, he explained to his parents that there were voices in his head, and that it was almost impossible to disobey what they asked him to do.”

“Since he was an adult, my friends could not impose treatment on him. At one point he threatened his mother and his sister with violence, so my friends had no choice but to call the police to kick him out of the house and place a restrictive order on him. They refused to see him unless he agreed to get treated – actually they were afraid of him, and any encounter he had with them invariably ended with extorsion of money by various threats of violence to them or himself.”

“In this case, in the end, their kid touched the bottom of his misery and had no choice but to get treated. But there was nothing my friends could do for him, and they had to protect themselves and their daughter from him. It was not their fault, and neither love, integrity or intelligence could have cured their son’s illness. It was neither under their or their son’s control. They were both victims of a severe mental illness.”

“I trust you can understand why these good parents had no choice but to throw their son out, even though they love him very much.”

But of course I DO understand that scenario, Kemist. But the example you brought up does not match AT ALL with the scenario under which Disconnection occurs in Scn. People in Scn (99.9999% of them) disconnect PURELY and SOLELY for religious reasons, which is a VERY misguided and STUPID (Yes Mike, it IS stupid) reasons to say the least.

Kemist : “The scientology disconnection is different because what is involved are mostly beliefs. However, to a true believer, these things are just as real as the threats of violence of a mentally ill or drug addicted child.”

You excusing them like this is almost childish, Kemist. It seems to me that you are guilty of having disconnected from a family member, and are just trying to feel better about it by using misguided explanations. If you did, the ONLY way to heal yourself, is to REALLY confront (w/out blaming yourself neither, as that NEVER works) what you did until you can’t find no “reasons” nor “explanations” AT ALL. THEN, and only then you can easily heal.

I am not a saint by a looooooong ways, Kemist. I am probably guilty of 20-30x of more sins than any of you guys and gals here are. The doors of “heaven” are CLOSED for me this lifetime, and I can perfectly live with that. I made peace with that. But if I learned something valuable (which I did, and a lot) from my experiences of doing bad actions, is that the ONLY reason one does bad actions boils down to just one factor and only one : SELFISHNESS which is the same as SEPARATENESS. So I am just being realistic here, I am not being uncompassionate at all as I DO feel the need to help those who lost themselves through their own sins.

Kemist : “What makes it so real is that terrible certainty that they are right. It does not help that they think their children, like themselves, can have complete control over their lives, and ‘choose’ to be victims of disconnection – after all, they can always do what needs to be done to be in good standing, can’t they ? Aren’t they able to ‘make it go right’ ?”

Excuses and more excuses, I am afraid, Kemist. But that’s OK to dissent and disagree. One DOES chooses to be a victim of Disconnection when one decide to disconnect from our love ones for religious reasons. I suggest that you find a way to heal your wounds w/out resorting to needing to justify your actions in ANY way, shape or form.

Kemist : “That’s what I’m getting out of your stance – that same lack of compassion, that same terrible certainty. The certainty that with enough of X, X being completely dependent upon your will, Y cannot happen to you, so Y is your fault.”

You missed ALL my points, Kemist. A duplication (which I don’t mean “an agreement”) of the essence of my comments never occurred. And I lack the time to keep trying to make you get my points.

Kemist : “It’s not love, integrity or intelligence that will provide protection against committing those atrocities, or help people recover from them. It’s compassion, understanding, humility. ”

You keep confusing terms and definitions every time. Those words and concepts ARE interrelated; you can’t just separate them out as you are apparently doing. Compassion is something that is EARNED through the guilty party showing some regret for what he/she did. I never just give compassion away, nor expect it from anybody towards myself unless I feel TRULY sorry for what I did. As I advised before, study those concepts on workable and honest works on philosophy such as Will Duran’s “An History of Philosophy”. Just at least admit to the possibility that your current definitions of those concepts are being altered and wrongly interpreted by you.

Kemist : “To have that compassion and understanding, you need to understand that there are things which are not quite under a person’s control, that… Shit happens.”

Again, that’s a justification – an a HUGE one, btw – that makes the one using it weaker and less able to effectively handle situations in life. That’s a form of self-denial.

Kemist : “In all the stories I’ve read about people who have chosen not to disconnect or reconnected with a loved one, that compassion and understanding was there. Love and integrity, sadly, were not enough.”

Those things ARE IN THE SAME CATEGORY, Kemist. You are just foolishly playing with words, and confusing yourself. Compassion is not the same ad pitying somebody which is which you seems to be doing.

Are we done?

Real food for thought in the comment and fun low up.

I really appreciate these words Kesmit. Integrity can’t stand side by side with a lack of compassion. You said this well.

I stand corrected Gary. I did received an e-mail from you and from some other poster the first time I posted my strategy. However, the 2nd time I did, I receive NONE. Besides, one response makes no difference whatsoever in this scenario, w/out attempting to invalidate and belittle your honest efforts and willingness which I DO appreciate.

So out of HUNDREDS of people suffering from Disconnection from their family members, I receive 1-2 responses to my strategy. Don’t you think that’s odd and strange? That was my WHOLE point Gary, which you apparently missed. People complain about how bad it all is, but when the time comes to actually DO something EFFECTIVE about it, then they find all kind of excuses and “logical” reasons why “it can’t be done”, or “it won’t work”, or, or, excuses, excuses, victimhood, victimhSOd.

That’s the sad story of most ex Scientologists; they just play the victim. It is so much easier” to play being the whole effect of something or somebody, than to fight for our rights against all odds and whatever it takes to do so.

I am not a victim; never was, that’s all. I never compromised with my own reality, and that’s why when an asshole very high CMO officer shouted at me and attempted to humiliate me, I almost dragged him through the floor. I shouted him back in a way that he and others got the message not to fuck with me. I routed out of the SO during the next weeks.

I started a fight against all odds to get my org to accept sending out the PC folders or my ex wife (to ITD Mexico), which they refused to send out because they allegedly disagreed with ITD Mexico to charge her mexican citizens rates. The ED of the Org, the bitch Susan Bates wrote to the GI int (or one of those fuckers from Finance at Int level) to get ITD to stop charging those Mexican rates to USA citizens or people from other countries. The Int terminal gave ITD the order to stop.

I then wrote to the then ED Int and petitioned him to change that arbitrary decision. He accepted my petition (for her only) but the Org ED wrote again to the GI Int guy and got my petition approval cancelled.

The Org ED attempted to declare me. All those petitions I did it under her name not mine, as if I was only being a translator. But the Org ED knew that I was the one behind all that. Using some past out-ethics record, she CSWed the Int Justice Chief for my SP declare.

I being a LOT smarter than any Scientologists (am I being too “arrogant”, Mike?), wrote the Int Justice Chief, and explained to him the 3P strategy from the ED. I did accepted all my past behavior, but got him to understand that I had and was taking responsibility for that. He ignored the CSW.

I then petitioned again to the ED Int, and the GI Int (or whatever his post was, but he was an Int guy) with specific data of the per capita rate of my country which is even lower than the one from the USA poorest state. I showed them how silly were the arguments about nor charging Mexican rates, and how no LRH policy was backing up such misguided arguments.I also showed them how the Org was acting very out-ethics in the way they were serving its public, and how they only had ONE auditor to service all the flow, and a VERY lousy one.

My petition (actually “HERS” on their minds) got accepted this time and she went to ITD and her PC folders got sent. She got audited, but ITD was as lousy and incompetent as PR org was. But that’s another story for another day.

But the point is, I risked being declared because her future was a LOT more important to me than my spiritual salvation. I just loved her immensely and still do but as family not 2D. I never thought for a minute in my own interests. I believed that Scn was man’s ONLY route to spiritual salvation, but I was willing to give that up for the person I love. I would die for her ANY time.

So please, dear Mike and any posters here, save your comments about my assertions being “unkind” and “uncompassionate”. My record of having enough balls to defend my rights are there for anybody to inspect. And I even have a few more stories like that of how I opposed high ranking staff because I refused to compromise with my code of honor. I even took my first wife out of auditing lines as she was being very badly audited. I decided to audit her myself w/out any C/S, and just using my OWN judgment. The Org wanted my head, AGAIN. I thought, “if I get declared for ‘squirreling’ so be it. At least I would have saved her”.

I have a VERY long record of insubordination in Scn. Greater than Captain Kirk. 🙂 Because I refused to be anyone’s slave. I speak with ACTIONS. I do not complain and do nothing about my situations in life. So all this talk about victimhood, makes me yawn.

Gary Johnson!

One can hope your Majesty. 🙂

It is not defeatist to understand that you do not have complete control over your life… It’s a fact that certain experiences teach you, in no uncertain terms.

These experiences also teach you humility, compassion and the importance of doubt.

You think there are no excuses for disconnection.

Let’s take a step back from the scientology experience for one moment.

I have good friends who have two kids. One of them has a severe psychiatric problem. Medicated, he can control himself and have a normal life. Unmedicated, he becomes a violent, unpredictable and dangerous person, prone to bursts of violence to himself and others. Later, when he became better with proper treatment, he explained to his parents that there were voices in his head, and that it was almost impossible to disobey what they asked him to do.

Since he was an adult, my friends could not impose treatment on him. At one point he threatened his mother and his sister with violence, so my friends had no choice but to call the police to kick him out of the house and place a restrictive order on him. They refused to see him unless he agreed to get treated – actually they were afraid of him, and any encounter he had with them invariably ended with extorsion of money by various threats of violence to them or himself.

In this case, in the end, their kid touched the bottom of his misery and had no choice but to get treated. But there was nothing my friends could do for him, and they had to protect themselves and their daughter from him. It was not their fault, and neither love, integrity or intelligence could have cured their son’s illness. It was neither under their or their son’s control. They were both victims of a severe mental illness.

I trust you can understand why these good parents had no choice but to throw their son out, even though they love him very much.

The scientology disconnection is different because what is involved are mostly beliefs. However, to a true believer, these things are just as real as the threats of violence of a mentally ill or drug addicted child.

What makes it so real is that terrible certainty that they are right. It does not help that they think their children, like themselves, can have complete control over their lives, and “choose” to be victims of disconnection – after all, they can always do what needs to be done to be in good standing, can’t they ? Aren’t they able to “make it go right” ?

That’s what I’m getting out of your stance – that same lack of compassion, that same terrible certainty. The certainty that with enough of X, X being completely dependent upon your will, Y cannot happen to you, so Y is your fault.

It’s not love, integrity or intelligence that will provide protection against committing those atrocities, or help people recover from them. It’s compassion, understanding, humility. To have that compassion and understanding, you need to understand that there are things which are not quite under a person’s control, that… Shit happens.

In all the stories I’ve read about people who have chosen not to disconnect or reconnected with a loved one, that compassion and understanding was there. Love and integrity, sadly, were not enough.

Theta that is a lie about getting zero emails about your plan. I know I sent you one telling you I was down with your plan.

Yes Mike, my comments might come across as arrogant, but they are true nevertheless. And no, I do not have a disconnected family member, and perhaps I am being a little uncompassionate. But as hard as that might sound to you or anybody here, your family members disconnected from you because of their OWN problems of self-discipline, and not because ANYTHING you did. Even if you “indoctrinated” them into Scn, STILL you are not to blame. They made their own choices based on their own level of ethics.

I am not trying to insult them, and God bless them wherever they are, and my best wishes to them. But a son/daughter who have their personal integrity intact, and who was brought to honor their parents, would never ever go with Disconnection as a solution. My daughter wouldn’t, I am pretty sure of it.

By blaming DM – or ANY other cult leader for that matter – you are assigning wrong source to the situation, and addressing the wrong target. Disconnection is a problem of self-discipline and self-respect. It is isn’t a problem of other-determined “causes”.

The handling would be to increase the ethics level and Integrity level of those who decided to go with the Disconnection “solution”. DM is of no importance to the handling of the Disconnection problem. 10 years should have taught you that.

Only because you never really understood them. But you will sooner or later. Arrogant much?

Clearly, you have no children who have disconnected from you.