Self-determined: Deciding for yourself that what scn determined for you is right. Anything else is other-determined.

Yes, is Ethics Officer but in the Sea Org.

This post of PeaceMaker’s should be bronzed and put into the glossary here.

You don’t know what scientific proof is? That explains your inability to pull away from a dangerous cult.

PeaceMaker, your comments are really sinking in. I would be willing to be a volunteer “BlowBus” bus driver to help people who want to escape but are too scared to make the attempt. I would be willing to donate to a shelter for blown scientologists too.

As a caring community, we can make this happen. Mike Rinder, please help with this! Let’s all pitch in.

Exemplary: Thanks for posting this. Bruce should write, as should us all so inclined… A lot of healing (for lack of a better word) may come of this. My advice: Start a journal at the very least. (Most of us have LOTS of KR’s (ignored) this may be excellent fodder, should one need reminders….)

Also…. A note on “PTSness..” JUSTICE is an amazing remedy… Elcon in his “infinite wisdom” was clever to never point that out as it might make Scn culpable for their crimes.

The “Why is always YOU.” What a flippin’ con, Lron.

Which reminds me: MM: LOVE your poems, do you have one for self determinisn or did I miss that?

Bruce: Thank you!!! You have a great perspective and you offered solutions about what to do re Social Security, finding a job and going to a doctor.. It’s obvious that you really care about your fellow… You are incredibly resourceful– loved your advice—and your “attitude of gratitude.” Keep it up!

Strictly, I don’t think one “proves” a belief system as a whole, but individual beliefs can be examined to see whether they have observable consequences, and those which do can be tested.

For example, the state of “clear” was at one time claimed to provide “perfect recall”, but an attempt to demonstrate this publicly ended in failure. (And per Wikipedia, Hubbard explained the failure was due to his own use of the word “now” – contradicting the claim that everything he said was carefully considered!) This failure occurred well over sixty years ago, and there has been no success since.

As far as who demands proof – well, I must admit that some of them may be doing so disingenuously, as you imply, planning to ignore the answer. But I would suggest many are in fact prepared to consider evidence.

Can you identify anything from Scientology which (1) is observable, (2) can only be explained by Scientology, and (3) has actually been observed?

🙂

WAYC, I haven’t seen George weigh in recently, but he has been talking about an anti-cult center in Clearwater, and I hope is paying attention to some of the ideas being discussed here. Thanks for asking a good question, that has sparked some interesting discussion. I’m going to comment on a couple of responses.

As to resources, it’s been posted that the FBI will actually help escaping Sea Org members as victims of human trafficking, which I assume is correct, though it hasn’t been much publicized. It would be interesting to find out if any other groups will help as well, and find ways to start to try to get that information to Sea Org members. And on a longer horizon, one of the reasonable legal changes I think should be worked towards, is to require that human trafficking information and warnings be posted in workplaces, including communal living compounds where individuals are performing free labor, similar to what is required now in terms of postings for workplace safety and wages – there would be a broad coalition of allies for such efforts, since they don’t just apply to cults.

The idea had also occurred to me for something I was thinking of as a “blow bus,” that periodically drove around Clearwater and even stopped at some of the same (presumably public) stops as the Scientology buses. A key part of that would be to have advertising-like messages on the sides that provided basic information on issues such as human trafficking, as well as phone numbers and websites. A lot of tourism information centers operate out of parked buses, and so that might actually dovetail with the idea of a cult information center.

Also, If I recall, in the 1990s there was something of a cult recovery center, I think in a rural area in the Northeastern US. I don’t know what happened to them, but that was around the time that Scientology was attacking CAN, and the center might have suffered the same fate. I don’t even know how formally it was organized, but I do remember some reference to it.

I’d certainly be willing to donate to such efforts. The attempts to raise money for billboards don’t seem to have been long-term successes, but perhaps there is enough attention on the issue that there would be opportunities for broader fundraising, including even from foundations and government.

p.s. If it’s true that Sea Org qualify as victims of human trafficking, besides trying to get them word about resources available for them to re-enter society, it ought to be pointed out to the outside individuals and groups that Scientology front groups are trying to “safepoint.”

Master-at-Arms I believe is the term they use, a relatively senior manager in the pseudo-naval hierarchy of the sea org at a local church or Org. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong.