Well, that looks inviting…![](https://www.mikerindersblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Screenshot-1086-2.png)
Bubbles Champagne
I guess Africa is going to achieve their goals now. And all for R100 per person! Epic.
This one is a bit more expensive
Chippendales have come to Celebrity Centre finally?
Bye, bye Santa Barbara
For only $25 you get to see the empty Ventura/Oxnard building.
Bet Santa Barbara is happy scientology is leaving. But it could be 10 or 15 years before their new building is ready based on other cities.
WE DID IT!
…you could call it a victory, I guess. Don’t want to tell you what it is, because then you wouldn’t come in and we would not be able to take your money.
Well, that’s interesting
What happened to “Blows Offs” being caused by O/W’s? Desperate for staff much?
Geography not their strong suit
Spelling and grammar aren’t too hot either…
New Delhi is “South Asia”?
New Org Staff Uniforms?
The doorman look wasn’t attracting many takers.
Double Feature
Bet you it was an epic, monumental weekend…
Lauri Welch!!!
OMG, a big star? Red carpet. Glamor?
Wonder if Mr. Jackson Wayans is going to make an appearance too.
Long term postulates…
Like really long term. Like never.
Mankind’s greatest friend
Yep. Take that Jesus. Leonardo DaVinci. MLK. Gandhi. etc etc
We never overstate things. Ever.
Should be pretty easy though to experience Scientology’s impact on the world — have everyone sit still and quiet with their eyes closed and hands over their ears.
Like I said…
Overstatements are not our thing…
Yeah, never….
Potter’s menagerie…
Snarling dogs. Cute cats. Gavin loves them all. They call him the pet whisperer.
Scots humor
Loads and loads of bridge completions. Including apparently a steer who completed the Ups and Downs In Life Course.
But they are “scheming” and plotting. Should be lots of fun to watch the massive expansion unfold.
The Files Phenomenon
They even have a name for it now.
There’s an exact technology to this…
Pity nobody seems to know what it is?
Money, money, money
It’s all very spiritual you know. Humanitarian even.
What did you say?
Come now Michael. Even for you this is a real stretch.
What happened to number 6?
More milestones. Wit a Sea Org Honor Guard no less.
It’s BIG news though and changes everything
They are even recycling their artwork…
Remember, no over-the-top claims
LRH will get you a job!
Seriously?
Looks like he stepped right out of the grade-school stage production of Stand By Me
Files Phenomenon
Bet they didn’t make it….
Which is the REAL files phenomenon. A perpetual backlog machine.
Join Us
Unless you are not one of us…
Mumbo jumbo
Reminds me, haven’t heard from Quinn the Eskimo for a while?
The First Scientology City
And at 10 Clears every 3 months, or 40 a year, it will only take a hundred thousand years or so… Looking forward to it.
Scientology Billboard?
This is the entirety of the email. They truly demonstrate they are the masters of communication over and over.
Not Scientology Poster But a little light hearted levity….everyone needs a laugh now and then:
A sign in a Shoe Repair Store in Vancouver: We will heel you We will save your sole We will even dye for you.
Sign over a Gynecologist’s Office: “Dr. Jones, at your cervix.”
In a Podiatrist’s office: “Time wounds all heels.
On a Septic Tank Truck: Yesterday’s Meals on Wheels
At an Optometrist’s Office:” If you don’t see what you’re looking for, you’ve come to the right place.”
On a Plumber’s truck: “We repair what your husband fixed.”
On another Plumber’s truck: “Don’t sleep with a drip. Call your plumber.”
At a Tire Shop in Milwaukee: “Invite us to your next blowout.”
On an Electrician’s truck: “Let us remove your shorts.”
In a Non-smoking Area: “If we see smoke, we will assume you are on fire and will take appropriate action.”
On a Maternity Room door: “Push. Push. Push.”
At a Car Dealership: “The best way to get back on your feet – miss a car payment.”
Outside a Muffler Shop: “No appointment necessary. We hear you coming.”
In a Veterinarian’s waiting room: “Be back in 5 minutes. Sit! Stay!”
At the Electric Company: “We would be delighted if you send in your payment on time. However, if you don’t, YOU will be de-lighted.”
In a Restaurant window: “Don’t stand there and be hungry; come on in and get fed up.”
In the front yard of a Funeral Home: “Drive carefully. We’ll wait.”
At a Propane Filling Station: “Thank Heaven for little grills.”
In a Chicago Radiator Shop:”Best place in town to take a leak.”
And the best one for last…
Sign on the back of another Septic Tank Truck: “Caution – This Truck is full of Political Promises.”
I’ve never been a Scientologist. I read this blog (and donate small amounts) to support Mike’s efforts. I look forward to the Thursday Funnies each week, but I enjoy the comments everyone makes as much as the blog post. 🙂
Poor Debbie Bredeweg has to think up new and effective ways to entice the burned-out remains of a public into the org for the usual shake down. This time it’s the lure of a mystery: “we did it but you have to come in to find out what the ‘it’ is…”
But even if that mystery had the power to evoke even a murmur of curiosity (which it doesn’t), Debbie still has the problem of finding a way to get people to read church-issued letters before ignoring them on sight.
I doubt that the “The Castle” event will have a good audience. There’re not many people left in scn from all accounts.
The whales have been declared suppressive. (I bet management are kicking themselves! “More haste, less speed” – would have been better in this case)
There’s no one left to fundraise from. R100.00 per person is all they’re going to get out of this.
“WE DID IT!” Now, I could tell you what it was, but, well, set aside one night and come here yada yada so I can tell you in person…
I’m either in a state of intense amazement, or mild shock.
I’d be embarrassed…what am I trying to say?
Let me try again.
I’d be cringing at the concept of writing bullshit like this. Literally cringing. In fact, I’m embarrassed for whoever it was that wrote this.
But I guess these people don’t get embarrassed.
That’s what I want to say. I think.
Look closely at the dog’s face. That dog is snarling. That dog in that picture is not a happy dog. A dog “smiles” with his mouth wide apart and open, maybe even panting a little with possibly his tongue visible but without teeth showing. When the jaws are tightly clenched, lips raised and teeth bared, watch out!
My own personal “Thursday Funny” Reader’s Digestions:
Kaye Champagne – (DM could not have better invented a better name). You look so happy and proud. And you are OT VIII, my goodness.
Kaye, please PLEASE get out of this while you can. If you do, you might hang on to one thing after all the upcoming collapse… your DIGNITY! (like Leah and Mike and others)
To all Battle Creek $cientologists, guess what?… I did something too (giggle).
For exactly one-half the price of what you were going to spend at the Battle Creek event, give that money to me and I will tell you what I did and it’s a surprise too! (giggle) … Upstat attire is NOT required with me. (Jesus H Hubbard, what is wrong with these people, yeesh).
“My name is Angelita, and I aid and abet criminal activity! I wonder if RICO would wrangle up the likes of lowly me when criminal charges inevitably occurs?” Get out now, Angelita.
BARBARA DEWS, she will help your Comm Lines… ha ha, I say BARBARA DON’Ts
Lauri Welch. My personal Tom Cruise.
LRH’s birthday. Let’s celebrate… by advocating birth control and abortion. Some mother actually squeezed out that mess of flesh that had a “brain” and nurtured it into adulthood. Gross.
The only Thursday Funny I do not want to mock is the one with the cat photo. Anyone who loves kitties can’t be that bad. See, there’s hope!
Scottish $cientology. Now I know why the youth in the movie “Trainspotting” turned to heroine, a much kinder and rewarding endeavor than $cientology.
“Files Phenomena” – yup, can’t see anything wrong with $cientology. What a great way to spend a weekend. You might bump into Tom Cruise or Bart Simpson, merrily filing away.
Filing, it’s the best way to save this sector of the universe. Careful, though, if you accidentally place a G into an H file, the whole universe could explode. Remember, LRH is watching you~!
Poor Marlon Fres! Poor, poor, poor Marlin Fres. Don’t you just want to hug him and whisk him away from that evil cult of fiends and demons? I think Marlon Fres should be our posterchild. Let’s protect all such young gullible people from the likes of $cientology! Poor Marlon. Well, he will certainly be poor after $cientology has sucked out his core and then spit him out into the refuse pile, like they do with all people.
Poor Marlon.
Laura Welch looks like Harry Potter in a naval uniform.
After seeing “Clear the City / Nation / Planet!!!” for the umpteenth time on the Thursday funnies, I suddenly had a question for those of you who were once on the inside. Did that phrase ever set off skeptical and/or cynical thoughts about the economics of the situation? Because you can’t clear the planet if the vast majority of the planet can’t afford the going rate of the courses, and also can’t afford the constant regging.
Did you cynically say “yeah right” when thinking about the masses going clear? Or did you think there would be a magical day when suddenly it was affordable to the lower middle class and poor people of the world? Or did you assume everyone else would somehow be able to pony up whatever you were spending?
I guess this question would be more for the Miscavige era. The stories I’ve seen here, and elsewhere, about the Hubbard years made Scientology seem somewhat more reasonable back then in terms of its cost.
to answer your questions. And I’m only speaking for myself. Yes, I had doubts and saw the economics were not possible, myself being middle class income earner, but hubbard stated as you go up the Bridge, your ability to earn money increases and will allow all to eventually afford scientology . But the problem was I could not express those doubts with communication nor compare notes with those that went “clear” or “OT” to verify if this was true or not. Add in, we did not really know the history of people involved, only heard so called “success stories” of these people that went “clear” and then “OT”, but actually no proof was provided that they earned more money.
I’ll add I never thought much of celebrities in scientology as being a success story while I was in, I always thought of actors, well, as simply actors so that angle of celebrity center was not a big pull for me in terms of making more money thru gaining ability thru scientology training and auditing, or it didn’t prove anything for me. I mean I knew if some actor had a hit series or movie, why they would get residuals for a lifetime. That does not equate to becoming more able as in clear or OT, if you know what I mean.
HI cs – I felt exactly like UTR mentions above. Starting in the 80’s I never could imagine a “cleared” planet, always felt it was a pie in the sky dream. This having to do with how un-affordable the cult became. But of course kept those thoughts to myself.
Kuba Ka is NOT 26 – he is 31. There are plenty of sources on this (most in Polish). He was named ‘Man Of The Year’ by Polish Elle magazine in 2000. If he was born in 1991, he would have been nine in 2000 – the photos clearly show that he is not nine years old, but closer to 14-15 which he was in 2000. He is a liar.
Sorry, man of the year in 2001.
Hello Johnny, nice to see you over here.
I scrolled through about the first half of the funnies, and I’m disgusted with ZERO mention of training auditors–and for the sooper-dooper speakers at these events there is no auditor training level mentioned. (Even if the training has been messed with as we all know.) Lots of OT this and that, big contributors or Power FSMs (trying to show that they have lots of money I guess), but nothing about whether or not they know any auditing tech. (Solo auditing is not just the same as auditing someone in front of you. It’s not and that’s something that someone who has not audited another person on a few Grades might say.) Training is just not “a thing” anymore. Status and money is. Pathetic.
Okay, everyone! Let’s look at this hoopla over the LRH birthday bash:
REMARKABLE LIFE: what, like busting broncos as a three year old even though he probably couldn’t get up on the horse by himself?
AACHIEVEMENTsYou mean like blowing up Sarge Pfauth’s e-meter while trying to go permanently exterior?
IMPACT ON THE WORLD: TTHBBBBBBBBBBBBBTTTTT!
If you plan on attending the event, have fun. Should be a real hoot.
Well, the promo does say ALL ARE WELCOME.
Wow, Portland “attested 10 people to the state of clear” in 2017 so far. What does that even mean? Probably past clears who were “unatttested” in 2015 after attesting in 1978 and are now “clear” again.
But that means that Portland will soon be a “cleared city”. Sure.
I don’t know, maybe it should read “arrested”.
And I guess 10 clears surpassed all of 2016, too! Wow, 10 clears in Portland last year. Whoopee.
“Including apparently a steer who completed the Ups and Downs In Life Course.”
Snicker.
Probably one of their best students.
Hey, what’s up with Marty Prince. Doing a seminar on finance and all like He has found a secret. Well hells bells, I did a why finding of my own and I discovered some really cool stuff previously un-frickin heard of in the cherch …..guaranteeeed!
Now I am going to pass it along for free and you don’t have to show up anywhere. Here is the scoop….
.
Yo Dave,
Feel free to interject good buddy
Newcomer, Class VI, OT VIII, Patron Meritorious, Cornerstone Member,CCHR New Civilization Builder, Sac Org (near miss Humantiarian -whew) and other stuff like major Leatherbound book owner and oh yes …..drum roll please ………proud owner of Frazetta Battlefield Earth Art!
I have been a sole proprietor of a successful small business for over 40 years (yes, it funded all that shit mentioned above too) but the good news …………… I moved into Power when I left the Cult. It’ simple, easy and definitely the cheapest way to go!
🙂
What is “upstat attire”? A dress that’s an inch longer than your last dress? A jacket with an extra pocket? Three shoes?
No, darling. It’s any clothing that has pockets stuffed with acceptable currency, credit cards or checks.
🙂
Erik Bayerdorfer chimed in in the online Comments section of yesterday’s Tampa Bay Times article.
He identified himself as ‘ErikB’ and starts his post with ‘As a resident of Clearwater…..’
He must have forgot to let us know he was also a Scientologist!
He uses the same picture as the one posted above
Is he ashamed of being a Scientologist? Not sure (sarcasm) why he wouldn’t mention that
Chee, maybe he’s just really shy.
Yes that must be it. I’m sure
Scientology can help him with that
There were a lot of ‘shy’ people posting
Word must be out to go and comment positively. Little corn COB must really want all of Clearwater
Do I get the Egyptian stud guy for 10,000 🙂
No, but, you can have me for a song!
We Stand Tall?
Jimmy Crack Corn But I Don’t Care
Jimmy Crack Corn But I Don’t Care
My Master’s Gone Away…
How’s that work for ya?
(We all know who the master is don’t we? His initials are david miscavige.)
La la la.
(From an old hippie chick)
Love old hippe chicks – best time I ever had, stringing beads and making bongs.
You did that too, I Yawn? We must be related!
Egyptian stud guy at a Scientology function.
Talk about out-ethics on the 2D.
How come David Miscavige never appears as a lying speaker at any of these events?
Uh, because people stopped believing him?
Marty Prince – is he the now the new man who’ll show you how to make money, Scientology style?
I’m always amazed & go tactical when I see vultures like Micheal Chan, Graham Payne, Marty Prince et al get their own flyer and seminar (spelled regging session). I can’t put on the net what I would like to see happen to people like that who personally profit from the Scientology conspiracy. It is so obvious and the evidence is overwhelming they are in it only for the money. Slime like that get there jollies off when the not quite bright buy their bullshit.
In my life I’ve confronted the occasional con man and one for one if you can corner them with their crap (that’s why I call them slimy, they are very slippery with the truth and will avoid exposure at all costs) they defiantly reply, “and just what are YOU going to do about it?” They feel safe somehow with their act. There is no greater cold hearted asshole than those that would lure people into the scam of organised Scientology. Would you trust David Miscavige? well… those people insist you do!
Just dropping in to say a huge thank you to Mr. Mike Rinder, and others supporting and helping him and to Leah and Lois, and Tony, and anyone else ‘contributing to the motion’ (lol) for endlessly continuing this battle every day, day after day, year after year.
Without this stability and stream of regular and up to date information we would definitely not be where we are now in terms of getting the TRUTH out there.
I do not know what inspired me to post this today, and it’s probably not the right entry to do it under, but thank you thank you thank you. and thank you some more.
-No One
Portland cleared fewer than 10 people in 2016. There’s more people than that attending to Kojak’s hair styling.
When they’re attesting, maybe it takes too long to wait for 3 swings. I’d just get up and leave…
Oh my goodness. The 3 swings controversy is really mind-boggling. A doctrinal argument over the proper use of magical mind-reading device. I think the medieval Scholastics’ debates over the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin makes more sense.
Oh, WAY more sense! It’s not even close!
“The CENTER of the United Kingdom”. Really? You couldn’t adjust your spell-check to give British English spelling for a British poster? What a sad, pathetic example of cultural imperialism.
Heh. Having a bit of a chuckle over the idea of Britain being on the receiving end of imperialism. That’s just a tad histrionic.
You guys in England had better watch out throwing out the stuff about cultural imperialism. Next thing you know, Fearless Leader will come to the same conclusion and demand independence from East Grinstead. If it’s good enough for Oor Nicola, it’s good enough for him.
That should be interesting. Welcome to the Scientology Republic of Saint Hill!
Mike, South Asia or Southern Asia are terms currently in vogue for referring to what used to be called the Indian Subcontinent. I think it’s actually a good term for referring to several countries with a lot of cultural and historic ties, and arguably arbitrary political boundaries, without using a colonial-era term like Indian.
And what is with these Sea Org Honor Guards? I can’t imagine that Scientology maintains and sends out ceremonial units. Is this when the Sea Org mission that’s been sent in to crack down on the staff, puts on their dress uniforms and swords for the public?
Also, I see that Colin is talking about “confusion” as something used as a tool to control people, and then himself conflating psychiatry with big pharma – which makes many medicines besides psychiatric ones, including ones that someone like an asthmatic would rely on for their life.
Everybody gets to dress up in their full dress Class A uniform for Sea Org day or to pose for the Gold photographer when a recruit promotional flier needs to go out. If you are missing the right color buttons or the stiffener for your cap somebody in the dorm will have an extra.
If you see someone wearing their cap indoors you know they either don’t know what they are doing or they are on mission. Caps are normally removed indoors.
Not so easy to figure out if you have the right campaign ribbons. I have been known to just borrow some not knowing what they all mean until I have an impressive looking left breast. I used to have some cool ones like the L Ron Hubbard Studio Construction ribbon, but have no memory on what it looked like. They just take real military campaign ribbons and rename them.
Swords are provided by the Gold photographer. They are not often used in the real Sea Org Day ceremonies. Maybe if Dave Miscavige shows up for the ceremony they would salute him with swords.
Ceremonial daggers are provided when you are qualified to run missions and have completed certain requirements. The classic maneuver is to walk into the Executive Director’s office, give him your most vindictive looking 1000 yard stare and thrust the dagger into his desk. That gets their attention! I have never actually experienced this and don’t know anyone who has, but the story goes around.
“Maybe if David Miscavige shows up for the ceremony they will salute him with swords.”
By doing what? Sticking him in the ass?
Of course, there’s no way the false accusations and injustice could have come from the organization itself, right?
Oh, absolutely! I can attest to their integrity! Above board all the way!
It’s a submarine you’re talking about, right?
Of course! What else would I be talking about.
A month advance notice, a secret message about a great accomplishment on April Fool’s Day. How appropriate, Battle Creek.
New Delhi actually is part of South Asia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia
What’s with the $10.000. Commas are forbidden? And that red headed kid didn’t look to happy about joining staff. Good luck kid! You’re going to need it!
I think that might be a Polish way of writing numbers….I’ve seen that before. So my question- is that $10,000 per ticket or $10?
Cause I’m only going if it’s $10,000! Totally worth it!
I’ll go with you, Chee! We’ll have a great time! They will have food, right?
Forget the food OSD….we’ll need booze and plenty of it!
I had a ‘senior moment’, Chee! You’re absolutely right! We need booze NOW!
Yep. Kool- Aid and lots of it!
that is how the do the numbers in Europe.
That kid doesn’t need luck, he needs about 6 months… after that we’ll never see or hear from him again. Last seen running towards Canada waving his arms about wildly, screaming incoherently .
I’m thinking that same thing! That kid doesn’t know what he’s getting into. They must have browbeat the shit out of him. Poor kid…
He’s probably bombed out of school, not made the grade, not trained for anything, no confidence, parents don’t know what else to do with him – a great recipe for success. Poor sucker.
Didn’t we all make a similar mistake?
I am curious to know how many active Scientologists are there in the world.
18,000 to 20,000 worldwide. Mike, correct me if I’m wrong.
OSD,
That number jives with what I have been reading recently. I think the ‘delta’ (change) is about -1.000 per year. Or -1,000 per year for you folks in the colonies.
Jim, thanks for thinking of us in the colonies. We get overlooked at times.
OSD, that’s the number that keeps coming up based on the most recent insider information, and various data analyses (such as census-based religious identification surveys) that all seem to point to about the same number.
There are also some indicators that it might be as low as 15,000, with nearly half of that being staff and Sea Org. The number of active members per org seems to be around 50 to 100, probably mostly on the lower side of that number outside of LA and the Clearwater (Tampa Bay) area.
My take on athat is, it depends what you mean by “active.” Handing over money I assume.Those actually receiving/giving auditing and training – it’s anyone’s guess but I reckon no more than a couple of thousand worldwide. Scientology, the only religion where it’s members are ashamed to let the general public know they are Scientologists. Inside the church it’s another matter but funnily enough not many of those 18 to 20k members actually attend their orgs. There always seems more staff than public in any of their promo or photos taken by others of the orgs in their day to day activities. Go figure…. insanity pushes for new boundaries everyday within the bubble known as Scientology.
Hey Mike –
Tony Ortega posted something on his website today that makes it appear that Marty Rathbun is working with the Church of Scientology to take out critics of the Church.
Do you think this is true? Do you think Marty is working with them?
Alanzo
Alonzo,
Why don’t you ask Marty? Or has he also accused you of being part of the ASC?
I thought the same thing, Alanzo.
Alanzo, everybody and their brother is exploding in paroxysms of speculation over at Tony’s site.
Fact is, we just don’t know.
Folks would do well just to listen to Chris Shelton’s video about the conspiracy theories they use to recruit Sea Org members, also on Tony’s site today.
Scientology is loaded with conspiracy theories, it is part of the scam. Belief in “secret knowledge” acts as a barrier between the believer and any true facts about his belief. Anyone who has been a Scientologist has a duty to sort out the truth from the smoke screen of falsehoods he has accepted.
But it is hard to do, and the other activist groups that use the same smoke screens muddy the waters. Do I go on believing that vaccines cause autism, or was that also a lie? Are there really cabals of international bankers that rule the world? Both sides of the political spectrum and all kinds of scam artists use these thrilling memes to draw in the unwary.
My personal theory is that the real world as it really is constitutes a terrifyingly complex and daunting aspect to a poorly educated person. So lots of folks are desperate for some grand scheme that simplifies it down to “us versus them”. Anything on the “them” side can be discarded and ridiculed, anything on the “us” side is good and true. No need to think or look at facts, just puzzle out which side it is on and cheer or jeer accordingly.
It simplifies the world, sort of like Hubbard’s idea of “Confusion and the Stable Datum”, http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/tools/sh15_1a.htm but opens the door to demagoguery, extremism, war, bigotry and hatred. Kind of a high price to pay for a bit of imagined stability.
Bruce , +1 , I wish I could be so eloquent !
I’ve got a Ph.D and I couldn’t have said it better! Of course, my Ph.D means, Piling it on Higher & Deeper…
I thought Ph.D was an acronym for Dr Phill. He knows best in all things, he says so!
Bruce, thanks for your thoughtful perspective. I agree, that we just don’t know – and I think that this is a case where there is not even enough information for informed speculation.
The thing that I would add, is that Marty is apparently a complex character, in the midst of a process of change that makes him even harder to pin down. He seems to me quixotic, a self-imagined warrior, loyal and dogmatic, and I can see why he made a good enforcer and attack dog for Scientology.
There was a time when Marty’s aims seemed to align with what we might call the critical community, but I think it was a mistake for people to imagine that he was one of them. As can be expected of someone dogmatic and ideological, who sees himself as a protector of certain ideals, he has ended up critiquing erstwhile allies for not living up to his standards. This is just what we see in the independent Scientology community as well, people who seem as if they should have a unifying larger common purpose end up fighting amongst themselves over details of ideology and tactics (and perhaps also leadership roles).
The whole brouhaha at the other site, seems to hinge around one e-mail, entered into in a court case under circumstances that remain unexplained. This is exactly the sort of flimsy evidence, open to interpretation, that a lot of conspiracy theories hinge on. And the e-mail happens to contain an ideation or threat of violence that someone acting in the role of a therapist (as was apparently the case), might have felt obligated to disclose, even if that was a judgment call over a matter that might not seem to really rise to professional reporting requirements. It also occurs to me, that it’s not clear whether the e-mail was volunteered up to the CofS, which is the accusation that the theory hangs on, or whether it might have been obtained by subpoena or by other means unknown such as through a third party; those are also the sort of realistic and even mundane possibilities, that conspiracy theories often fail to consider.
By describing the email as ‘flimsy evidence’ you misunderstand the nuances of the brouhaha
First off, I am not familiar with Israeli law, but assuming matters of evidence are similar to what they are in the US, evidence does not just get in front of a judge.
There are rules as to what is admissible. Emails that were obtained by hacking someone’s computer (for example) would not be admissible.
This leads us back to the source of the email. If it was indeed part of Dani’s PC folder, wouldn’t that be a breach of confidentiality?
If Marty was acting as Dani’s therapist, 1) is he a mandated reporter? (Scientology auditors are not licensed by anyone outside the church, so I can’t imagine they are under any reporting requirements for ‘patients’ who might be violent)
2) if Marty did feel obliged to warn Miscavige, should that report be allowed to be used as evidence in a lawsuit??
Seems to me, one person had the email. As a ‘therapist’ should he have shared that private email with ANYONE ?
Not much of a conspiracy theory as to where the email came from. I think the ‘conspiracy ‘ revolves around WHY Marty did what he did.
And that no one knows.
One person could very easily clear up the ‘controversy’ but that person refuses to do anything other than insult anyone who asks.
L Ron would be proud of his minions!
I have wondered about the Miscavige Rathbun relationship and I am gonna say something that sounds stupid. I’m entitled. I really wonder if aside from possible MAD issues, that of them having been together so long and done so much they both know enough secrets about one another to get them both thrown in jail and if it is a deeper connection, that of guilt and genuine love of Marty’s side. I get the feeling he was sort of used to being bossed around by Miscavige and wanted to please him and do things for him and there was a sense of camaraderie, over many bad things to be sure, but a sense of brothers in arms so to speak? It would be hard to turn your back on something like that, especially if it was literally your life for decades. Why should just picking up and walking away be easy for anyone, let alone under such a strained, close quarters ‘us against the world’ type setting?
Stupid? I don’t know. A lot of damaged people go back to the damage when given the chance to run. Peacemaker?
I mean, is it possible that Marty is covertly doing his A-E steps to get back in good graces somehow?
My reality-check approach to that is to ask, then why hasn’t he taken down his website full of attacks on the CofS and Miscavige as his first step? The Miscavige regime is obsessed with “entheta” and the internet, so wouldn’t that be their biggest priority?
Knowing what I know about Marty, I would say that he’s not doing A To E. Marty knows that if he started that process, that would give Miscavige the whip hand, and Marty’s studiously avoided that over the years. He’s been playing a long game, and he’s always stayed one or two steps ahead.
And that leads to the main reason why I think Marty would never do A To E. If Miscavige has the whip hand, there is nothing to stop the Toxic Dwarf from demanding that Marty disconnect from Mosey as part of the reconciliation process. She’s an SP. She was on the Posse Of Lunatics cover of Freedumb Rag. She sued the cult, not Marty. There is no way that Marty could complete an A To E without disconnecting from her. If nothing else, if Marty gets back into good graces without disconnecting from Mosey, what kind of example would that set to the rest of the cult? What’s there to stop spontaneous reconnections from happening all over the place? What’s to stop, say, the Reisdorfs from making a stink about their situation with Craig? The bad publicity engendered from making this exception alone would be cataclysmic to the cult. It would destroy disconnection at one fell swoop, and the Dwarf could never have that happen. It would remove his ace of trumps from the deck.
Marty will never disconnect from Mosey and little William. That’s where the line’s drawn. He knows the cult will demand this of him if he ever tries to do A To E, so that’s why he’ll never do it.
Of course, speculating about anything to do with Marty is a fool’s game, so take my speculation for what it is, something that I’m pulling out of my ass based on fragmentary knowledge of a guy I don’t know.
Although I don’t play “figure Marty out” I find your analysis roaringly astute.
Jen, I appreciate your comment that is compassionate, and thoughtful about he psychological dynamics involved for someone like Rathbun.
To be honest, I had been away from the subject for quite a long time, and only caught the tail end of the Rathbun saga. I’ve read a fair bit of his website, but I don’t have a fully formed perspective from having followed him for years.
I think that Rathbun’s real break was from Miscavige, who he saw as having perverted Scientology and having turned it into a tool of enslavement (though there are questions as to whether that isn’t really what it was all along, see next). It would not be surprising that he still had some mixed feelings about such a long-term relationship, but that break seems to me irreparable.
Rathbun originally seemed to have been loyal to Hubbard and the Scientology teachings but then, like many, to have slowly come to question and even doubt them. He also seemed to want to see a reformation of the CofS – which might have brought him back to an important role. He seems to have soured on all those, as well, but here the relationship to them seems more complex and I’m not certain that he might not return if he had a chance, or was called.
So Rathbun seems to me to have taken a 180 degree away from everything Scientology. But there are historical precedents for such a defector, ending up doing an about-face.
The one additional thing that I think is important to say, is that I see Rathbun as a sort of quixotic, idealistic character, and as he says himself, a warrior – which made him ideal for his position as Inspect General at the CofS, enforcing orthodoxy and fighting enemies. I can relate to that personally. As I see it, he still often operates out of a sense of idealism and even honor, and sacrifices practicality for principle in ways that may not seem to make sense superficially. But in that light it’s not surprising that he’s ended up in some quarrels with critics and indies who he feels don’t live up to the standards that he thinks they should, making enemies when it might seem that it would be more politic of him to make allies.
There’s a lot more that might be said, but in the end we hardly ever really know much for certain about another’s inner life and motivations, though there are times that we need to form working theories about them for the purposes of understanding or determining how to act. I think that Marty is more inscrutable than most, and best given the benefit of the doubt since he does not (any longer) seem to be up to no good even if some of his actions are questionable. I see no reason to paint some one as an enemy, who could one day turn out to be an ally.
p.s. Chee – I double-checked, and the (translated) testimony is that the attorney had an e-mail “received” from Rathbun. That would appear to rule out any third party, but we still don’t know whether Rathbun just offered it up, or might have been legally compelled to provide it.
Hi Peacemaker.
Assuming Israeli Rules of Evidence are similar to the US (how big of an assumption that is, I don’t know), if Marty had been compelled to produce the email (a possibility, I agree) the other side (Lembergers) would have also received a copy of it.
But who knows, maybe Israel allows one sided discovery.
I can appreciate your defense of Marty. Personally, I think Marty talks
a big game about honor and ethics, but does not walk the walk. Or maybe it’s just that he walks
the Scientology walk of ethics, i.e. what is best for David Miscavige is the most ethical.
IMO what Marty misses in all this is that most people who read Tony’s and Mike’s blog wish him well.
Marty claimed months ago that he had evidence to the contrary and he would produce it ‘in due time’
Still waiting
There’s just no logical reason for way Marty responds. The name calling, the misdirection, the refusal to answer a question instead saying his blog speaks for itself (um no, it doesn’t), the crazy allegations…..those are right out of the LRH playbook.
I still wish him the best. I hope his young son is allowed to grow up without the influence of L. Ron Hubbard
Sorry….don’t mean to beat a dead horse here Peacemaker, but I did want to point out that even if Marty was subpoenaed, this case is being tried in Israel. Marty is under no obligation as a US citizen to comply with an order from an Israeli court. So, it seems like the evidence is weighing on Marty giving this email up voluntarily
The anti-anti-anti-anti-ASC is strong in this one.
Tony’s site and Mike’s site here are the two sites I check every day. I was unfamiliar with most of the recent Marty Rathbun story until just recently (although I’ve watched many Rathbun videos and quite frankly, I’ve always liked the guy and found him to be very sincere).
After Tony posted that this morning, I believe one of my first comments over there was “conspiracy theories are going to be the order of the day around here” or something to that effect. And there has been rampant speculation as to why a church attorney claimed that he received an email from Marty that was sent to him from a litigant against the church.
But while you’re correct in saying we just don’t know for sure, what Tony is reporting is that Marty did not respond to Tony any more once he was presented with the actual court transcript. He did respond to Tony’s initial inquiry before that, but it came across to me as very abrasive towards Tony for even asking him questions about it.
Marty has to know that this is only going to add fuel to the fire to these theories. I’ve been trying to find a logical rationale myself (aka, speculation) as to why he perhaps has not responded to the claims made by this attorney. I’ve seen several videos of Marty and he has always come across as a reasonable and sincere person who truly cares and speaks out vociferously about the abuses being perpetuated by the upper management of his former church. This seems so out of character with the person I’ve seen in those videos.
My entire point is……yes, we don’t know. However, I think that the speculation is fueled in large part by Marty’s refusal to respond once presented with the actual court transcript. I personally hope he DOES respond and can shed some light on this situation, because his reputation is taking a pretty large hit and I worry that he may soon find himself isolated with very little support from “either side”…..and as I said before, I actually like the guy.
As for the “us vs them” mentality, I understand your point as well and in most cases, nothing ever is “black and white”. However, it is difficult to believe there’s any sort of “middle ground” with the leader of a church that almost feels like he demands people either conform or be destroyed. It’s especially difficult when the church refuses to open themselves up to questions surrounding some of the allegations of its extreme practices (similar to Marty apparently refusing to answer questions surrounding the claim made by this church attorney in court).
Without the church responding directly to these allegations, allowing themselves to be questioned by news outlets, or allowing independent and unbiased third party investigations into these alleged abuses (and not just dead-agenting by their outside attorney in interviews), all I have to go by in making my decision about the truth of these allegations is the testimony of the members who have left the church and who are all consistently alleging gross violations of human rights. Technically, I’m just “speculating” about the church as well based on these allegations and the church’s refusal to allow questions by an independent journalist, but I refuse to just let these allegations just go away without commenting or speculating (which I’m sure the church would love nothing more than for that to happen).
When you don’t respond to questions about potentially stunning revelations, other than just attacking the person asking the questions and then ignoring that person’s follow-up questions (like the church consistently does and like Marty recently did according to Tony’s article today), what else do we have to go on? I believe he needs to respond to hopefully shed some light on this, even if it’s to simply say “I can’t really discuss anything more, but I hope everyone will understand the difficult position I’m in at this time”.
Perhaps one of Marty’s friends can shed some light on this for me.
Mick, I’m going to make a comment here somewhat similar to one I made on T.O.’s site. Has it been put out there the possibility that Marty Rathbun is being blackmailed? For some reason that was the first that popped into my head when I first started hearing the stories floating around. Perhaps I’m naive and tend to think the best of people I admire, and yes I admire much of what he’s done. It seems his reaction to criticism re: his apparently reverse stance might be a little over the top for someone who’d gotten hush money. The fact that Monique Rathbun’s lawsuit was proceeding so well seems to say there’s more here than meets the eye. So how ’bout it lads and lassies. What say you?
Possibly. I’ve also considered the potential that they may have made threats (physical or otherwise) against his wife and/or child, which as a husband and wife, I could certainly understand his desire to protect his family. I would think he would be willing to share (expose) something like that though.
But again, that’s just more speculation without a statement from him about this stuff. He’s a pretty famous guy to the folks interested in this topic, so he’s naturally going to draw attention to what he says and does related to Scientology (and what he doesn’t say and/or do), because folks are interested in him due to how high he rose in the church hierarchy.
Sorry….”which as a husband and wife, I could certainly understand”
Should read….
“which as a husband and father, I could certainly understand”
My only speculation I’ll entertain is that whatever is going on, it’s out of love for wife and child.
Jen, as I mentioned, I commented on Tony Ortega’s blog regarding the blackmail theory. In that comment I actually suggested that the target might have been Monique Rathbun. Now I don’t want to beat a dead horse so I must say that it IS all conjecture. Unless one of us is a psychic (whom I wouldn’t trust anymore than a scientologist) the guesswork is going to remain moot.
Which Jen are you commenting? I believe we are essentially alluding to the same thought process. We just won’t really know. 😉 If I was the intended subject.
Does Scientology survival depend on the sole actions of Rathbun? The decline of Scientology will occur with or without him.
Now when it came to Monique lawsuit being dropped. Keep this in mind. She is not or was not, from what I have come to understand, a Scientologist. I have to wonder what pressure she was under even if their case was going to be successful. I would imagine the church would have amped the pressure. This is not the world I would think she lived prior to Rathbun. I can imagine how strange and bizarre her world became and I could understand her wanting all of it to end (Scientology harassment). I always like to be the devil’s advocate to look at things from a different perspective. I can’t condemn them for whatever actions they chose. I don’t live in their shoes. I also believe the decline is going to continue to happen regardless of Rathbun’s actions or inactions.
I’m a little mystified. I don’t believe I was accusatory, action blaming or even negative about the fact that Monique Rathbun dropped her lawsuit. It was merely an observation in keeping with the theory I posited. I certainly feel as if I started something of a firestorm. That was most certainly not my intention. I find it very hard to believe that Marty Rathbun was or is in collusion with david miscavige. Mr. Rathbun strikes me as a man who wouldn’t give second chances when he’s already given a hundred. Although disappointed in his decision not to press forward with his efforts to dismantle scientology I have no animus nor even criticism in this matter. I, again, was wondering if anyone else had the same thoughts as I.
Or money.
Mick, hopefully you will get more insight from some of “Marty’s friends,” but I’d like to point out that Tony Ortega did not just ask Rathbun a question, but framed it as a sort of accusation that Ortega had caught Rathbun helping Scientology. I think that given Rathbun’s professed “warrior” personality, it’s not surprising that he did not respond well to that approach, particularly given the possibility that Ortega may have been wrong in imputing the worst motives to Rathbun’s action.
Peacemaker,
Here are the questions Tony asked:
“Are you cooperating with the Church of Scientology in litigation with a critic of the church? Are you being paid by the Church of Scientology for your cooperation? Was the dismissal of Monique’s lawsuit part of a deal for the church to pay you?”
Just curious…..how would you have phrased those questions? I don’t think they are accusations, just questions
The only question I see as possibly ‘accusatory’ is the last one. But again, a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ would clear up the issue.
Marty’s response is classic Scientology avoidance/attack. His credibility is sunk because of his own behavior.
Chee, those are what in legal terms would be called leading questions, and they presume that Ortega’s theory about having caught Rathbun is correct. It’s just short of the sort of infamous old full-blown accusation in a question, “when did you stop beating your wife?”
I think that Marty simply should have been asked if the testimony was correct that he provided the e-mail, and if so why he provided it. Based on the answers to those questions, they might have been followed up with more specific queries. This is an area where I have professional expertise, and I can tell you that there are better ways to handle something like this to have the best chance of getting cooperation, particularly when the relationship is already tense.
If Ortega was, for instance, completely mistaken in his presumption, and Rathbun was actually legally compelled to provide the information, not happy about it – and perhaps finding out for the first time how the CofS was spinning it in open court – it’s not surprising that Rathbun would have snapped back at Ortega.
It’s easy in the internet hothouse environment, to forget that someone like Rathbun doesn’t “owe” anyone an explanation. And if he’s decided that the Bunker is just something like “information anarchy,” and perhaps thinks that anything he says is likely to be twisted, it’s not surprising that he would have dismissed the question. He might well be waiting for an opportunity to tell his side of the matter on his own terms, and we’ll just have to wait and see what happens.
Haven’t you ever dealt with someone or a group of people, whose questions or accusations you felt you could never answer satisfactorily, and who you decided just to ignore instead?
p.s. Here’s some brief information about leading questions, and how to ask questions properly in an interview, from a journalism website:
http://www.mediacollege.com/journalism/interviews/leading-questions.html
Thanks Peacemaker, but I learned all about leading questions 20 years ago in law school.
I will turn Tony’s questions into ‘leading questions’ for you (because as they stand now they would not be deemed leading IMO)
1. Isn’t it true you cooperating with the Church of Scientology in litigation with a critic of the church?
2. How much is the Church of Scientology paying you for your cooperation?
3. Wasn’t the dismissal of Monique’s lawsuit part of a deal for the church to pay you?
Leading questions assume an answer.
The way Tony wrote his questions – they can all be answered with a ‘yes’ or ‘no’
Marty may not ‘owe’ anyone an answer, but it sure would be easy for him to answer 3 simple questions rather than spout vitriol.
Marty shared many details of the litigation with Tony and everyone at the Bunker when it served his purpose
Even a non specific reply like ‘thank you for your concern. For personal reasons we chose to drop the case’ would have been much more sensical than calling people names and making up a bunch of stuff. Maybe he has bad blood with people in the Bunker, but he responded to ABCs 20/20 with a ‘my blog speaks for itself’
That’s just childish. Be a man and step up to the plate. You’re right, he doesn’t owe anyone anything, but after so many people cheered him on, this
Is how he responds? By betraying a confidence (between him and the Lembergers)
Questions could have still been worded differently that would produce a different response. Call them whatever type of questions you want, they were worded in such a way that evoked a negative response. What questions could he have asked?
1. Information has come to our attention that in an Israeli lawsuit involving so and so, that an email submitted by you, blah blah blah. Is this true? Can you fill us in on the details? Or something along those lines. I think you are smart enough to come up with your own. His questions would appear to be accusatory and filled with presumption.
Jen
Perhaps you and I would have phrased our questions differently, but if the answers would be the same (‘no I did not give the Co$ your email’) then what is the point?
Is Marty a delicate flower that can’t handle a straightforward question? Didn’t Marty train on bullbaiting? I know scientologists don’t like straightforward questions, but I think Marty is capable of answering ‘yes’ or ‘no’.
These questions are only problematic because Marty can’t answer ‘No’ and he doesn’t want to explain why he did what he did (or the Co$ won’t let him)
People with nothing to hide, hide
Nothing
I can see where it could come across that way (one of the reasons I don’t care much for digital communication, because it can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings). But mostly, I researched a bit last night and there apparently is a history over the past year between Marty and Tony (and their respective commenters) after the lawsuit was dropped last year by his wife (with speculation galore again as to the reasons why). I also noticed an uptick in hostilities between Marty and some other CoS critics, and saw that people started wondering why he was attacking people who were considered to be his “fellow critics”.
This all seemed to happen well before I became involved in this subject, so I can’t really speak intelligently about what happened there (whose fault it is, who started it, etc.), but I would hope that despite any personal disagreements or occasional flare-ups, everyone could stay focused on the real goal of continuing to speak out and expose the abuses of the organization to enlighten and warn others of the dangers with involving yourself with this current organization, and work to give Scientologists who decide to leave a “soft place to fall” (if you will) and provide them support as they make what I can only imagine to be an enormous and frightening transition in their lives.
This can happen when egos get involved. I agree it boils down to communication. I tend to get defensive myself when approached in a similar manner. My ego goes hey, how dare ya.
Well written Bruce. As one who has worn a uniform, carried a rifle and obeyed orders, some simplicities are easier to accept and thus it settles the mind with a purpose. But those once simple ways of viewing things have a way of deteriorating when the damage they caused becomes evident and your trust gets shattered with leadership. Even a quick look at history shows a bloody path to our way of life, only a fool would believe it can’t happen again. Scientology as presented is part of the problem, not a solution.
I saw that. I thought it was a great example of the currently in vogue “stirring the pot with opinion”. No facts necessary, just add unenlightened minds and stir…. I sadly see it as more a reflection of their conception of others, and desire for ‘agreement’.
your mileage may vary.
Rathbun, imo is a seeker of alternate truth – always has been. The extant truth will never be acceptable for him. It is so too complex to explain, even to himself.
I was complex once, but, I became simple…
Good point, OSD.
I read something yesterday, I wish I hadn’t deleted it. which said, and I paraphrase, that there’s no reason to carry on with a mistake that took you so long to make.
IMO, Marty is compromised.
How can you tell? I always saw you as a rubic cube with a broken D string. Complex to tune… with lots of twists and turns.
To his credit, I’ve never seen Mike criticize or speculate about Marty.
For which, I believe, most if not all us respect Mike.
Veterans are like that.
Absolutely correct.
I consider Mr. Rathbun a casualty of scientology and my feelings toward him are only sympathetic. What I do know as an absolute fact is that he owes me, Roger Hornaday, no insight into his thoughts beyond a turn signal should he be driving his car in front of mine.
Hear, hear. former Anon here.
So hilarious. This batch is the best yet. I guess that 8th grade education is put out for all to see in the design of the brochures, do they have proof readers? Spell check?
Eye dun’t sea ene germati, umm gremat, aah gurrmata….aahh…speleng errars….wad is wrung wid youse peeples….
Guess all those hours clearing words in the dictionary didn’t work out so well.
Huked on Fonix werked grate four me.
Spell checks are for Wogs, Kathy! They’re much too busy to think about grammar.
Here is what I got out of the second post. Bubbles has super powers and can bestow them onto you for $100.00 HAHA
I’ll give her 25 cents….and that’s probably too much.
Even better–she can bestow them onto you for 100 Rand, which, at the current exchange rate, is about $7.50 USD.