Is running in circles around a pole so much better and more therapeutic than running in a straight line?
Or around a 400 meter track?
The “Running Program” is supposedly based on some Hubbard “Whole Track Research” — though it was first used as a punishment on David Mayo… It was subsequently used by Miscavige as a punishment on many people at the international base. So much so that after stories about it appeared in the media, the infamous “running track” at Golden Era was bulldozed out of existence. This piece of “amazing tech” is no longer available to the people at the top of the scientology heap.
But they DO keep selling it at Flag. Some people have done this thing 3 times (proudly?).
Here is a recent “success story” from our old buddy Jeff Mintz (amazing how he stopped sending out the weekly completions from Flag after I began publishing them and noting the terrible stagnation comparing them week to week).
Remember, ALL THIS IS IS RUNNING IN A CIRCLE. NOTHING ELSE.
It is a testament to the power of suggestion/persuasion scientology has over people that they willingly PAY to run in a circle. And then write over-the-top “successes.” Can you imagine how much money they could make if Hubbard came up with another piece of Whole Track research and discovered that standing in one place increases your “thetan anchor points and thus restores your power as thetan”. They could charge people $5000 to stand in one place. They wouldn’t even have the overhead of a running track to build and maintain.
And as idiotic as “standing in one place” sounds — if Hubbard had said this, scientologists would be paying for the right to stand in one place at their local scientology building.
F.D. above could have gotten an endorphin high running on the street in front of his house. And even written a success story about it. And saved $5000 plus whatever they squeezed out of him/her for hotel accommodations and food.
What a racket.
Actually Mike, the very first LRH advice on the Running Program was to David Mayo to have me, go out and run – this was supposed to handle my disaffection and disagreements with the increased insanity at the base and within management, for which DM and VA had declared me Suppressive and offloaded me for. When the LRH advice was received by David Mayo, those involved in my offload went scrambling to have Paul convince me to return to the base – otherwise, they didn’t know what they were going to tell LRH! I returned to the base still declared, reported to Mayo who showed me the advice to have me “go run” – at this time where was no pole, so I just ran along the highway, through the golf course, and where ever else my legs took me. Shortly after I completed the running program LRH ordered Mayo and several others to run around a tree, which was then changed to a pole.
Janis:” the very first LRH advice on the Running Program was to David Mayo to have me, go out and run – this was supposed to handle my disaffection and disagreements with the increased insanity at the base and within management,”
I’m curious, Did it work for you? I’ve not had a chance to get & read your book, but it’s on my wish list.
I imagine if you really wanted to harass people you could make em run in squares.
Run around a Möbius strip or tesseract (the geometrical shape and not the Marvel Cosmic Cube)?
Fractal. Never ends…….
As Beck says in his song Dreams:
“Here we are (oh oh oh)
Running circles, around around around around
When nothing’s right, just close your eyes
Close your eyes and you’re gone”
Yes the power of imagination!
“When I want to get up from bed, I do it.”
Gotta admit that that’s an amazing accomplishment.
A lot like- “I eat when I’m hungry” and “I sleep when I’m tired” how in the hell is that an accomplishment?? I don’t think anyone would be proud or amazed that they accomplished that- infants can do that!
Frankly, I’m tired and will go to sleepppppppp
Kat opined: ” I don’t think anyone would be proud or amazed that they accomplished that- infants can do that!”
True dat. Then there are those of us who allow ourselves the luxury of NOT getting up right away but reaching over to our S.O. on the other side of the bed and suggesting wasting some time together.
OTOH, those who always “eat when I’m hungry DO have a responsibility to eat responsibly lest we get as tubby as Tubby was, with the concomitant medical problems. One of the behaviors Momma taught me was to listen to the body when it craved something and determine what item was missing in my diet, tempered by good nutrition, of course. The body’s pretty savvy about its needs if you listen carefully.
Absolutely! It’s all a matter of balance, and it doesn’t take any special training or running around in a circle! I wonder how they rationalize the rest of the world being able to manage themselves without ever having any of the training??? Apparently, we should all have starved to death, died from no sleep, and/or stopped breathing or something.
Is it possible to make wrong and get away with it?
If people can’t be scared to silent the point in making money out of victims of crime is a bad idea.
“Is it possible to make wrong and get away with it?”
Of course Roger, when you’re the absolute leader who by definition can do no wrong….
Deciding what to eat is a win?
Dawn:”Deciding what to eat is a win?”
When you’re in the SO, there’s often not much/any choice. Luckily, I grew up in a house where if I didn’t want to eat what was served, I had to eat at least half the portion before I could reject any food. There was never an alternate meal for recalcitrant children. Luckily for me at Flag, the chef: Laurie [Noonan,IIRC] ; later She was an Englehart] was good at making meals which were at least edible. Thinking back, I believe I enjoyed what she did with the rice and beans. At least I didn’t retain any animus for having consumed them.
Unentangling my flows!
Bwa-ha-ha-ha.
Scientology, you so FUNNY!
This is all very well to post something ridiculing and emphasizing the running or jogging and making out (by omission of the other 30 (?) or so steps of the Super Power RD) that this is all there is to the Rundown and of course we see the non-informed results of which in the comments sprinkled liberally below.
Now, I never did Super Power but many of its steps I did anyway as a staff member and you can see the results in the fact that I am so powerful that several commenters have even adopted adaptations of my nom de plume such as “MiniFP” and “Foolproof Junior”, even “FPjr”. What will it be next? See! If you A-Jers had had even a few steps of this rundown you would be as powerful as I! Bow down now to the Lord thy God you worthless souls (you don’t classify as thetans) and quail before the Super Power of Foolproof!
The fool is back, but alas, the proof is absent.
Mikey said:”The fool is back, but alas, the proof is absent.”
FOOLproof reminds me of the old saying:”Better to keep your moth shut and have people think you a fool than to open it and prove it to them. [Probably a mis-dup, but you get the idea I hope.]
I don’t keep “moths” but you have certainly a few bats in your belfry.
Oh gosh, FOOLproof is attacking over obvious typos. HOW productive of an intelligent conversation. Oh WAIT! this is the guy PROUD of being proof of a FOOL.
You seem to be under the illusion that one obtains an intelligent conversation on this site!
Please don’t insult me by calling me just an A-Jer … I’m senior to them … I’m an SP …
“They could charge people $5000 to stand in one place”.
LOL! Thank you, Mike, for being such a funny guy 🙂
Aquamarine offered:”“They could charge people $5000 to stand in one place”.
LOL! Thank you, Mike, for being such a funny guy ”
AND there’s early ‘research’ I hazily recall to link holding a position with creating energy or some such. It’s been too long since I cared for me to be more specific; I expect that any who care about accuracy in ‘verbal tech’ might be moved to look it up and chastise me with the proper quote.
FP, the title on the doc is CAUSE RESURGENCE – not Super Power. That is, in fact, just the running around a pole part.
I searched to verify the state of affairs, and Mike has previously posted CofS promo pieces showing them selling just the CRD itself:
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/running-program-hype/
And I checked through the original post and the comments, and no one else other than you has confused the two. If you read the “success story,” it specifically refers to the CRRD as distinct from the SRD.
Super powers failing you?
No, my Super Powers are just fine. I just thought it was also part of Super Power – perhaps someone can enlighten me? Not the SRD by the way as you have mistakenly assumed. Whatever, I am still extremely super powerful and anyway I didn’t you give permission to question my data!
Your superpower is idiocy! Well done fool!
Thanks for enlightening the rubes, O mighty fool proof one. Your master Hubbard would be proud, especially since you have swallowed his guff – hook, line, and sinker – which only a super powerful person, with a Deep Throat, could possibly get his flappy lips around. Please, did you need lubricant, or do your lips stretch even wider than those of your master Dead Ron?
Please also allow me the pleasure of a witty response, but limit it to thirty characters, I am a slo-o-o-w reader, and my dictionary does not include words like enturbulation, cognite and others that somehow Hubbard forget to get Funky Wagnall or his relatives to define.
Yours in fellow worship of the Ass of Vistiril One, Ammo of the Alamo.
It seems you are also a devotee of the YSCOHB Cult!
FOOLproof scribbled:”It seems you are also a devotee of the YSCOHB Cult!”
Jealous FOOLproof?
“Hail Foolproof!”
FP,
Do you have any baby pictures you can share with us?
Because, there is something I absolutely must know:
When you were born, did you have little claws?
Aqua – you are getting very forthright and belittling now in your comments – it must be all this entheta rubbing off on you! You were so mild a year or so back! Are you now on the dwindling spiral down towards the state of Wynski?
You belittle people here most of the time. Your hypocrisy is astonishing.
Entheta? *eye roll*
No, only idiots.
I see that your $cientology training has brought you compassion and peace.
Aqua,
Nope- just pictures of his caved in head where his mother dropped him repeatedly.
Kat
Oh! My mother is now brought into the invective. And yet you are the one whose son is having nightmares about “Scientology” and your attempt to find some sort of podium!
Foolproof,
I sincerely apologize for that comment. It was completely out of line.
Okey dokey. I wasn’t that worried anyway – haha! But apology accepted.
Hiya Foolproof, King of Trolls!
ALL HAIL!
For your sins say 300 Hail Marys. So – King of Trolls on the biggest trolling website on the planet – not bad eh? But then I said that I was super powerful.
To the Site Moderator: why doesn’t my comment appear as “waiting for moderation” when I posted it like in the good old days! Have OSA hacked in again?
WAYC typed:”Hiya Foolproof, King of Trolls!
ALL HAIL!”
No, FOOLproof isn’t a ‘king’ of trolls. In my experience, there are far more accomplished ones out there. FOOLproof hardly ranks as a comedy routine. A real troll isn’t caught as one as easily as FOOLproof. Net denizens have been calling him out as an attempted troll for a few years that I’ve noticed by exploring old posts here and on the Bunker. About the only controversy he stirs up is what do we call the poor guy?
G’night all.
Well you are obviously lying as I have never had anything to do with the “Bunker”. never posted anything there and neither will I.
FOOLproof posted:”Well you are obviously lying as I have never had anything to do with the “Bunker”. never posted anything there and neither will I.”
Well, what was THAT on March 16 at 3:13 PM?
If I cared, I could find a few more ties you’re lying about (or can’t/won’t recall).
You’re such a failure as a troll attempting to disrupt the flow of TRUTH about the cult of scientology, I’m astounded OSA keeps you around.
Well, what was “it” on March 16 at 3:13PM? – I’m all ears. Well, please find these posts of mine on the Bunker. I haven’t even got a clue as to how I would find such on that site, so prove it bud!
Yawn. Another failed attempt at sarcasm and, I’m guessing, humour. Keep trying and one day, about a hundred million years from now, and you might just make it as a seven year old kiddy humourist.
Running around a pole ad infinitum does not a super hero make. All you get is excercise and being put into a mentally suggestible state; repetition of any kind can be used for hypnosis.
Super powers do not extend to internet trolls. The X Men would not accept an asshat with an overly developed sense of self, spewing puffery with every breath.
Helping others is its own reward and is the greatest super power we have been given to change this world. Scientologist, self serving lot they are, don’t practice charity in any meaningful sense.
So, how can you, FP follow such a degraded being? From his own definition, LRH is a prime example. Please explain ?
You are definitely delusional as well as a fool. Love the examples of your supremacy- wow. I’m all agog at your splendor (sarcasm again). Just so you know, NO amount of explaination would make this whole thing any less ridiculous. The fact that you seriously cannot see that speaks to the amount of brainwashing you have had!
Or credulous.
credulous adjective
cred·u·lous | \ ˈkre-jə-ləs \
Definition of credulous
1 : ready to believe especially on slight or uncertain evidence
accused of swindling credulous investors
Few people are credulous enough to believe such nonsense.
2 : proceeding from credulity
credulous superstitions
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/credulous
Lol
Talking of brainwashing, my replies to your Kat-calling are not being allowed again, presumably based on some sort of bias. As to credulous, and non-biased (well, somewhat) perhaps you might like to visit Alanzo’s Blog where you can do further “research” on “cults”. Is the new moderator a reincarnation of Goebbels?
Foolproof,
Perhaps it’s my superpower- maybe you should be scared of my abilities?
Actually it’s just your paranoia that has shriveled your intellect. I’m sure that it’s all part and parcel of believing that everyone is out to get you…wait! I know, you’re really David misogynist posting under an assumed name- makes perfect sense. You are both morons
This is a perfect example of someone not following the drift (of the conversation). And yet she makes out she is an expert on cults after reading a few pages about Jonestown and coming on here and cattily throwing invective around. And she still won’t get it!
You are a sad, sad, sad angry little person
Can I ask you an honest question? You may already have been asked this but I’m fairly new around here. If you truly are one who practices scientology isn’t being here on this site against policy? Aren’t the people you’re commenting back and forth to SP’s?? Wouldn’t all of this be a dangerous thing for you should you be found out? And if so, what do you gain by being here that would make you take such a risk? I am neither an ex or wannabe, just curious.
To get the other side of the coin, instead of reading all this invective here, try the the Milestone 2 website or even Alanzo’s Blog although the latter falls in between. I am an independent Scientologist to answer your question.
FOOL proof: When a guy has to assert how powerful (or whatever) he is, I’ve found he usually ain’t by no means that way. Truly accomplished people don’t have to loudly proclaim it to the world. A corollary is when a
See “Literal Understanding” on the Chart of Human Evaluation.
FOOLproof tossed in:”This is all very well to post something ridiculing and emphasizing the running or jogging and making out (by omission of the other 30 (?) or so steps of the Super Power RD) that this is all there is to the Rundown and of course we see the non-informed results of which in the comments sprinkled liberally below.
You obviously are responding to something OTHER than has been discussed on this page. That makes your comment non-sequitur and of no value to a logical discussion of the topic Mike introduced here.
Oh, WHY am I wasting time on someone who seems incapable of reading and duplicating others’ writings?
All covered above if you had read further.
I didn’t read the “success story” part of the flier after reading that mind numbing/twisting meaningless drivel of a quote by Lub O’Tard. Although “When I get up from bed, I do it.” stood out as I quickly scrolled down and thought, When I get out of the bed the first thing I do is head for the dunny and do it as well. So I’m guessing that that is what Mr Mintz (peppermintz or spearmintz?) is talking about.
RTC – Remove The Cash?
dunny….a great Australian expression…like a thunder box
Poor, pathetic, brainwashed, duped, dumbed down SUCKERS ??
If you’re reading this and in scientology for GOD’S sake — get the fuck out.
Did you know that little malignant Horror show elf David Miscavige has amassed a personal fortune in excess of 50 million dollars by draining your and everyone else’s bank accounts. Just cut your losses and get the hell out…
After you complete this action, you realize what’s messing up your life. Then you’re off to see the Reg who will be more than happy to empty all your bank accounts. After proofreading this article I found a typo. It’s not the Running Program; it’s the Ruining Program.
So many replies to my comment about having wins in Scientology .
Hats off to you who answered and responded in all the ways. I have some deadlines for the work that I am doing, but I can reply to some of your questions and statements here.
1. Are my wins stable? Yes. Further, I know my auditor procedures well enough that I could “rehab” most people’s wins here easily within a few minutes. Let me know if you want, and I’ll help. Note also that there is nothing really permanent in this universe. Any creation we have has to be continuously “put” there. True enough: virtually everything is either expanding or contracting. Efforts to remain constant result in contraction.
2. The bad or silly stuff can certainly be extricated from Scientology. Scientology is a body of information. Information can be evaluated and accepted or rejected or any gradient in between. There are lots and lots of silly stuff in Scientology, and Hubbard was a hypocrite who fell a long way from his ideals. (I am also a hypocrite who has fallen short of his ideals. Thank goodness I have also, from time to time, lived up to them. And there’s more living now and ahead of me! Hopefully, I will do better in these later innings.)
3. Dr Mac and Suppressive Person – you two really should exchange phone numbers and grow your relationship. I think there’s something beneficial in it for both of you. Sincerely.
4. Author William S. Burroughs studied Scientology for some time and was declared (as I have been, with numerous reissues) yet remained friendly with the subject itself (as have I) for, I think, the rest of his life (as I believe I shall be). I have often referenced an article by Burroughs in my arguments with fellow ex-Church people.
Here is the article: http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/images/197003-mayfair.pdf
5. I claim no other parallel between William Burroughs and myself. I only reference him as he’s done my work for me. He spent some hours, undoubtedly, toiling over some typewriter to explain his affection and disaffection for the whole subject. It seems that I think about it as he did. I think there will be many of Mike’s readers here who will agree with his observations.
6. To all the others who commented with any sincerity to my comment here – thank you! If any of you would like to talk with me further, please let me know.
Dan, “wins” are subjective bullshit and NOT what Hubturd made scamology about. It was about the OBJECTIVE ABILITIES GAINED on the Grade Chart. Since those are basically nonexistent the deluded fall back on “wins”.
I can make up BS “processes” and list things like being able to fly as the ability gained and mention that people also experience “whoopees” too. You will then find the people I scammed NOT talking about the abilities gained I promised but all the subjective whoopies. If you cannot work out why that is you are still under Hubtard’s mind fuckery.
“The bad or silly stuff can certainly be extricated from Scientology.”
Like what?
Mr. Locke – Burroughs wrote his article many years ago, before Scientology was stabilized even in Hubbard’s mind. I can’t give it too much credence since he was writing about a Scientology that hasn’t existed for decades, and one in which he was most assuredly a firm believer at one time, after he was a dissenter, but before he became a dissenter again.
I respectfully point you to today’s post at The Mockingbird’s Nest titled “Hidden Abuse in Scientology”, and his prior post “Scientology Assists and Objectives as Hypnosis” which both explain a lot, and may give you insight as to why so many people who think of Scientology only in post-70s terms are very annoyed at thinking wins are anywhere to be found in the cult.
http://mbnest.blogspot.com
Of course, I still have yet to see anyone write up their stable long-term win, or wins, in regular, non-Hubbard English, and offered for fair examination – other than “I learned to be more confident” or “I learned to talk to people”, both of which are natural on the path to normal human growth and maturation.
Thank you.
Ammo Alamo
Dan, the one thing that is assured as well as the sun rising from the east, is that if you state what you state “they” (as in “They Live”) will attempt to hound you from the site. But like me, it seems 16″ shells could bounce off you so well done to you – and for getting your wins, unlike most of the A-Jers and n’er do-wells posting here. Haha!
Foolproof, you state, “But like me, it seems 16″ shells could bounce off you so well done to you – and for getting your wins, unlike most of the A-Jers and n’er do-wells posting here.” If you feel that most posters here are out A to Jers and N’er do wells, then why do you waste your time posting? Why do you associate with A to Jers and N’er do wells? Wouldn’t you be better off with people more at your own level?
One word: attention. Oh, and arrogance. Can’t forget the misguided arrogance.
Ah! Katherine Invalidate! I was wondering when you would show up? Were you peeved I left you off my recent list of stellar personalities posting here? Sorry about that and next time I won’t forget you.
It is a good question Cindy, and many of my friends also say to me “don’t bother with these lunatics”. I usually try to limit my comments to replies to misguided aspects of the Tech and ad hominem slurs on Hubbard and you will again usually find my first comment on an article starts off with one of those themes. I suppose what it is, is that I have had so many wins from Scientology which has always been delivered correctly to me (and my friends) that it pains me to see said lunatics desperately trying to stop such occurring.
As to the abuses in the Church and whether the current Church can deliver such any more is for me an unknown question as I have been on the outside for so long but I know quite a few top auditors who tell me that they are constantly engaged in repairing cases messed up by the Church. But many of the posters here want to destroy the whole subject and that I find abominable, hence now and again I pitch in. You will notice that I support commenters such as Peabody and Dan Locke and a few other constructive and truthful ones when they are attacked – they probably don’t need my support but I do so anyway. I hope that answers your question? (I could probably say a lot more but that will do I think.)
Cindy,
Like KatherineINCali, I have concluded, through reading his/her posts, that Fool is an extremely lonely individual who has few, if any close confidants and/or friends. He is seeking validation through the blog- he can tell himself that he has a powerful impact on others by pointing out to himself the number of responses he receives. This is a coping mechanism as he likely gets very little satisfaction in his day to day life.
His behavior is akin to a child who craves attention and knows that negative attention is easier gained than positive enforcements- it doesn’t take as much effort, and it doesn’t cost as much if it fails to garner attention. I believe he was likely forced out of ‘mainstream’ scientology or he left because he didn’t feel appreciated or valued for his abilities, and he lost the validation of that identity (he likely blames Miscavige to some degree for his lack of standing). Therefore, he became what he calls “an independent scientologist’, in an effort to re-live the days when he felt he ‘belonged’ somewhere.
He can no more stop posting than he can accept that he is unfulfilled and miserable in his life. He will most likely rail against this post, thus validating the conclusions. His ego wont let him remain quiet as it would be perceived as a ‘slight’ or a ‘failure’.
The truly sad part is that he would likely be happier if he completely freed himself from scientology and joined the human race. He is likely too scared of rejection to do that. you can see some of the signs in his posts- usually when he makes a point of pointing out his ‘friends’, when he talks of his success in scientology, and when he tries to divert attention from any conversation that comes close to exposing a blatant falsehood about LRH and scientology. He has spent so much of his life wrapped in his ‘scientology’ personality, that he cannot let go of it because he fears he will not be able to stand on his own and rebuild his life with ant success.
Haha! The veritable deluge of daily comments from Kat Rueful who is someone who has had no experience of Scientology and not even anything to gripe about personally points out the obvious fact that what she accuses me of is of course totally pertinent and applicable to her. But then she says she is a psychologist and so we start to see (one of) the reasons now. And behind all that one would find perhaps a sneaking desire to launch herself as some sort of “cult expert”, get on TV, talk shows etc. As for being “lonely”, I don’t think you could get more lonely and pathetic than gleefully and childishly dropping off silly little cards around Orgs and constantly making silly little sniping comments which she usually starts off with “I imagine that…” (fill blanks with some sort of invective).
See my other comment…
FP, you have no experience of psychology or some of the other things you comment on or refer to. So aren’t you accusing her, of what you yourself are doing?
I think the topic here is Scientology!
And no, I don’t recall ever commenting on that subject or for that matter any subject where I don’t have that much knowledge, unlike Kat.
One of the simplest processes in Scn.
Start running!
Keep running! (repeat as needed for 8 hrs)
Although, best practiced when running in one direction – AWAY. As far and fast as possible. Guaranteed good results for life enhancement!!
I had dealings with Jeff Mintz when I was considering getting onto OT VII.
He told me it was a great idea for me to cash out all of my retirement savings to get moving to this.
Of course, I refused to even consider this idea.
Later, I found that that there are very substantial tax penalties for doing this which, of course, he did not tell me about. I am very happy that I told him where to go.
On another occasion, his recommendation was for me to borrow as much money as I possibly could and then declare bankruptcy, I thought this was incredibly unethical and refused to consider it.
Talk about unethical predatory regging.
scientology think:
Greatest good for the greatest number.
But what about me?
You don’t count.
Of course he didn’t tell you about the substantial tax penalties – it would have hurt him to tell you that. Bankruptcy and tax penalties only hurt you.
How, I wonder now, is harming yourself to get to the next the vaunted OT (which doesn’t exist) the greatest good for ANYone?
“…his recommendation for me was to borrow as much money as possible and then declare bankruptcy.”
Gotta love these “most ethical people on the planet”!
I imagine that Hubbard specifically made people run in a circle to exert control over them. If you can get someone to do something ridiculous, it definitely increases your power over them. Then there is the possibility that he wanted to get people used to futility. I’ve seen the still ins running in circles all day long so I guess it makes a kind of twisted sense! It’s obvious that Hubbard himself did zero running.
EXACTLY Kat. Excellent observation. There are also other processes Hubtard had to do the same. They were called the CCH’s
Yes, you “imagine” quite a lot! Still, this blog is perfect for you – you can post any old nonsense and most of the other idiots won’t contradict such as they don’t have a clue either. Oh! I forgot – you are now setting yourself up as a “cult expert” after reading a few pages on Jonestown.
FP, one only need read what Hubbard himself said early on about how to control people – and observe that he then went on to implement exactly such techniques and measures in Scientology. Among them were, that the way to control people is to lie to them – do you deny that Hubbard then lied extensively?
As for the origins (and intentions) of the CRRD, or running around a pole, the following account is corroborated by others both as to the basic facts, as well as to Hubbard himself having ordered it. Note in the link at bottom, that this posted at freezone.org – website of the “indie” Freezone Association:
“On August 29, 1982, David Miscaviage, and others, acting on the orders of L. Ron Hubbard, kidnapped me and subsequently kept me captive and physically and mentally abused me for six months. During this period, David Miscaviage, an officer and director of RTC, told me in the presence of Vicki Aznaran, President of RTC, Mark Yaeger, Commanding Officer, CMO INT of CSI that if I ever escaped, he would personally see to it that the resources of the Church of Scientology would destroy my character and reputation internationally. During that six-month period of captivity, I was forced to run around a tree in the desert in temperatures of up to 110 degrees for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for 3 months I was under tremendous coercion and duress. I was refused medical and dental treatment (after escaping captivity I lost six teeth and required thousands of dollars of dental work to save the rest of my teeth). I was not permitted to make or receive phone calls and all letters I wrote were read by Scientology security guards. I was often awakened during the night and interrogated (mainly by Jesse Prince). In early February 1983, I was told by Rick Aznaran, Director of Security, RTC, (husband of Vicki Aznaran, President of RTC), to get the idea of leaving out of my head because I would never leave the property alive.”
http://www.freezone.org/english/Historical/Reports/David-Mayo-death/david-mayo-death.html
Wow, Peacemaker. So how did David Mayo finally get out?
You seem to think that I am a supporter of the current management? I have stated quite often that I am an Independent Scientologist and it didn’t take me 30 years or so like many of you dudes and gals posting here to realize this.
FP, I’m making the point that it turns out to all trace back to Hubbard.
If you’re implying that you think that what happened to an insider like David Mayo in 1982 when Hubbard was still alive and by all accounts still in control behind the scenes, actually was the work of those who won the power struggle 4 years later after Hubbard died in 1986, that’s stretching into conspiracy theory. And even if so, Hubbard was the “tyrant” (as still-admiring former right hand man Ken Urquhart admits) who wrote the brutally fascist Responsibilities of Leaders that Miscavige takes as his direction for how to run Scientology, along with all sorts of other nasty directives including the “head on a pike” policy, so what was done to Mayo is certainly in keeping with Hubbard’s totalitarian style, in any scenario.
And did you really leave the CofS just because you had a realization, or was it actually not entirely your own choice?
Peacemaker, Fool unreservedly support Hubtard and all the felonies he committed. Why? Because Fool is criminally insane himself.
Wynski, I know FP is a true believer. I respond sometimes for a couple of reasons, including taking the opportunity to expose the fallacies in his positions and claims for readers still trying to figure out what makes people like him tick – as Mike has pointed out, he’s a good example of the indoctrinated scientological mindset.
Based on past experience with similar personalities, and the way FP evades some of the most awkward issues, I suspect it also confronts him with a certain amount of cognitive dissonance. I think he’s smart enough to realize that he’s on shaky ground when it comes to at least some of the positions he tries to defend, and comes here in part to play the debater’s game of arguing for things he doesn’t completely believe – plus, of course, there’s the classic mechanism that believers deal with their own internal doubts (and are encouraged by their controlling organizations or ideologies to do so) by externalizing the dissonance and arguing their faith to others, hence the emphasis in high control groups or cults on proselytizing at front doors and on street corners. Having spent more than my share of time around debaters, I get that sense of intellectual gamesmanship – and attempted one-upsmanship – from his comments.
Or he could even just be a troll who simply enjoys such debaters’ games. Perhaps it’s even someone playing the game of trying to make the true believer position look as awkward and untenable as it is – in which case, it doesn’t hurt to help.
Speaking of true believers, Hermann Göring’s daughter Edda, the “Shirley Temple of the Third Reich,” who was an apologist and denier to the end, just died. FP could have written this about his spiritual father:
“My only memories of him are such loving ones, I cannot see him any other way.”
And she exemplifies the classic attempt to abstract, as FP does when he tries to separate out the “subject” from the deceptive, abusive and even criminal behavior of the leader:
“The things that happened to [victims] were horrible, but quite separate from [him].”
Edda Goering, Unrepentant Daughter of Hermann, Dies at 80
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/obituaries/edda-goering-dies.html
Fool,
The fact that you display rabid outrage whenever anyone notes something negative about ANY aspect of the cult gives lie to your adamant avowal of NOT being a devotee of the cult. Your responses to everyone forwards the discussions on this blog and allow everyone to vividly see the results of the brainwashing at work here. Thanks for that as it gives a glimpse of the wreckage left in Hubbard’s wake! Your inability to form independent thoughts on any subject, no matter how inane, just proves everyone’s points. It’s better than any article that could ever be written to show what happens when someone is sucked into LRons craziness!
Again this is pure nonsense. I don’t defend “ANY” aspect of the Church, actually usually only Hubbard and the technology but then your (lack of) powers of discernment do not see such as you have zero knowledge of Scientology. And of course the things your wrote about me could be said for you defending the “Anti-Scientology Cult” – you’ve never written a positive word since you started on your quest for fame and attention and are just regurgitating what others have stated elsewhere.
Hello Kat. Personally, I admire the way Mike allows most everyone to express their opinions – even though they may disagree with the majority.
In my experience, blogs and forums that ban people at the drop of a hat seem to have terrible problems as a result and they become very unpleasant places to visit. Mike seems to be quite wise in the way he handles people who disagree with the majority and this blog tends to be quite pleasant as a result.
I read two of the Fool’s posts a few weeks ago and just ignore everything he/she has posted ever since.
Best wishes to you. I hope you can manage to ignore the people who you don’t want to read. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any automated way to do that on this blog.
Skyler,
Thanks for that. Foolproof bothers me about as much as a flea. Scratching it feels good, but in the great scheme of things it is utterly unimportant- it’s just amusing.
I like to see what insanity he spews when I poke at him. It actually does give me valuable insight into what everyone is up against. I have enough confidence in myself and my life to not be bothered by a flea!
Haha! I bet more people read my comments than yours – nurny nurny nah nah or whatever the phrase is!
Exercise is good. Endorphins are good. We have a home gym. We can work out there when we want, wearing what we want without worrying that a reg will ask us to up our status when we finish doing what we chose to do that day. We also get to watch TV or read a book or listen to music while working out if we want.
The thing that is the most worrisome about the whole “cause resurgence” program to me is that it is medically unsupervised. What happens to the aging scientology population when someone suffers a heart attack while running around a pole in the dark? Will it be swept under a rug, or will that person be declared because “they were doing it wrong”.
Plus, exercise only works if you continue doing it.
Aaaaaah, rinse, lather repeat. You have to keep redoing cause resurgence. The do all end all money pit. Purif, cause resurgence, purif, cause resurgence. No need to invent OT IX and OT X. You’ve got it right there.
I think the problem of senior citizens who are currently members of the S.O. or living on one of their properties is potentially one of the largest disasters The Scam may face in the coming years.
They have a great number of elderly people who will inevitably need medical care in the twilight of their lives but who have no money, no medical insurance and no way to be able to get medical care. What will happen to them when they have a heart attack or stroke or other critical medical condition that will lead to their inevitable death. What will The Scam do with their bodies? What will they report to the authorities? It is almost certain they will not permit the Coroner to come onto their property and take the corpse of anyone who dies there. So what will they do?
As the number of elderly members of this scam approach the end of life, I fear they are likely to die in horrible conditions. In filthy disease infested living quarters with no medical care and no access to hospitals. This is potentially a huge disaster in the making. I have no idea how The Scam will be addressing this problem. But you can bet on two things:
1) Whatever they decide to do may very well be illegal.
2) Whatever they decide to do will be something that does not cost them any money.
When it comes to Senior Citizens, The Scam has no intention of spending any of their money. They will chose to do whatever they decide providing it does not cost them any money and if there is anyway they can make a few sheckles as a result of dealing with these deaths, I would imagine that would be their first choice. If they can sell the corpses to medical schools to be used as cadavers, I would guess that is what they will do.
Does anyone know any other ways they can make a few dollars by selling cadavers to willing buyers? I would guess this may be a good way to bring criminal charges against them.
Skyler,
I know you are a fairly new commenter here. You need to dig into horror stories about elderly Sea Org members being offloaded. Yes it happens all the time. When they reach the end of their useful lifespan, they are “offloaded”, with no social security benefits and foisted onto a society with no way of supporting themselves after a lifetime of servitude to the organization which ruined them. Very few elderly are kept there to die, people like Annie Broeker, Heber Jentzsch and the like being the exception as that would raise a large stink.
This is contrary to some information I acquired recently – some people I know who have relatives living in Florida stated that these relatives know of retired SO staff who are living in a Church organized retirement home. So this is another story like the Barley Formula one – one that gets repeated constantly as it is negative but perhaps without any real substance, just hearsay. I am not saying this to defend the Church, but more to – well, simply state what I heard – as that is all you dudes are doing.
Whoops- foolproof,
You just proved my point about supporting the “new regime” against every possible slight. You are not an independent Scientologist.
You obviously cannot grasp and digest data. The truth is the truth but then I trust the person who stated it as he is out of the Church for years and does not have an agenda – unlike you. And one is unlikely to get facts from current retired SO members as they are not going to be visiting this site, so once again you are basing your information not even on someone stating what they know – but purely negative assumptions.
You just proved my point about your incredible “research powers” or rather your ability to evaluate information, which is zilch. Best stop embarrassing yourself or be a bit more circumspect with what you write.
lol- you really make me laugh.
I agree that Scientology’s senior citizen SO members, and staff, are likely to be a real debacle for Scientology, resulting in new scandals.
It could already be that many of those offloaded in recent reported reductions of the SO, were elderly. If Scientology starts to try to take care of large numbers of them in-house, it’s likely to be as bad as the infamous old cadet orgs and nurseries – but nowadays, they’re unlikely to get away with that with seniors.
They can continue trying to dump their elderly on relatives and nursing homes, but the number they have to try to “dispose of quietly and without sorrow” will probably increase in coming years, and at some point that is going to result in “flaps” and scandals. The systems to handle charity cases with no Social Security, like most SO and staff, will eventually react when they start getting too many strange people out of Scientology – and some will probably start to tell strange tales of abuse to staff and others, as they slide into dementia.
Their aging public membership presents its own challenges. Many will start to get too old for Super Power, or other major bridge actions. The regging that Scientology gets away with now on nominally consenting adults, is already starting to get them in trouble when they apply the same sort of tactics to seniors who are seen as vulnerable – and ultimately, that raises uncomfortable questions about their manipulative tactics in general.
They process the cadavers and add them to the rice and beans to save costs. Soylent Green is People!
(I know, I know – it’s a serious subject but I couldn’t resist.)
If the sea org keeps statistics on how many people it offloads it would be kept highly secret. It would definitely be bad publicity if such statistics were published.
The only safety net, if you want to call it that, for the offloaded elderly that I know of is that in the U.S. there is a program called Supplemental Security Income (SSI). It provides about $750/month in cash plus food stamps and free medicare or medicaid to the indigent elderly. There are details but that’s the gist of it.
Scientology has the money to properly feed and support their elderly, including medical care. Had they paid their SO and Staff even minimum wage, all would be eligible for Social Security and Medicare.
But that is not Scientology’s way, and probably never will be its way.
Ive often thought about this exact situation , my summation is that,that property at I think Pretoria ? the building chimney looks like a crematorium duct ,its well out of nosy neighbors, and the the smoke could be hidden, just by the distance ,
One could burn any evidence of old SO members , they would disappear.
Granitt
I would imagine that Hubbard specifically made people run in a circle to exert control over them. If you can get someone to do something ridiculous, it definitely increases your power over them. Then there is the possibility that he wanted to get people used to futility. I’ve seen the still ins running in circles all day long so I guess it makes a kind of twisted sense! It’s obvious that Hubbard himself did zero running.
Yes, again you “imagine” quite a lot. As for the “possibilities”, they know no end from your keyboard eh? Any other possibilities? What else can you imagine?
Running in circles….our dog does that every day without provocation to burn off the ever present excess energy he builds up….he runs around his crate like a Greyhound chasing a rabbit…….but then he’s a nearly two year old Golden Retriever.
It goes something like this…for cats anyway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-UVfr7JRCg
Balletlady,
My son used to do that when he was small- something about getting dizzy and falling down was hilarious to him- maybe that is the desired result!! I also seem to recall a childhood game that involved a blindfold and turning someone in a circle….
Another clear example that the current seaborg are illiterate, are dumb/numb to the written word, and incapable of any thinking. They blindly print Ron’s quotes without considering what Ron actually wrote.
SEE ABOVE 2nd quote: “If in business you were to simply sit still and take only the inflow and never do an outflow, you’d starve in a very short space of time. So we get this whole picture of balanced flows which this universe has so pat: outflow, inflow. And a good game is 50 percent outflow and 50 percent inflow.” LRH
Ron hisself wrote that inflow only results in the death of a business. Currently the borg is only inflow, so why should they seem surprised that they are dying? Dead in the head is soon dead in the body.
Good point! There’s no real outflow. Of course, they’re dying.
That said, the Sea Org members, unless they experience severe abuse, or, as some have, undergo a personal transformation and blow, will probably will stay as long as DM is putting a roof over their heads and giving them a bed to sleep on and – such as they are – 3 meals a day.
The Sea Org makes robots out of people.
Robots who become totally habituated to being micro-managed in every aspect of their lives. Robots, who, from an early, impressionable age, never have to think for themselves or make any important or even trivial decisions. Robots who, on behalf of their master David Miscavige and with “ARC” and beaming smiles, perform evil and destructive acts on their fellow Scientologists with no qualm of conscience.
The Sea Org makes robots.
The intelligent, perceptive and courageous amongst them will realize (“cognite” is the Scientology term) and blow the Sea Org. They’ll have their realizations and get the hell out ANY way they can. They’ll reach out for help and Aftermath will be there for them. These ex-Sea Ogres will shed their robotism, because they WANT to. They might not blow but attempt to route out “properly” because they believe that’s the right way to leave. But if they route out this way they’ll stick with it. They WILL get OUT.
The rest – the cult-prone, the ones who crave orders and their entire lives micro managed for them – these Sea Org will stay holed up in Miscavige’s bunker until the cult folds, or they die in old age in the cult, or, they develop some body problems that get them off-loaded. Whichever comes first.
Aquamarine, your predictions are based on truth and on experience which anyone can see if they are willing to look. I agree totally on your predictions of who will come out and who will stay in the SO and why. Ron even wrote a policy letter titled “Robotism.” He didn’t like it, yet following the cult ways, the SO is producing robots.
Aqua,
If there no outflow won’t they eventually explode?? Now that I’d pay to see!
Kat,
I think of them more as Hungry Ghosts (Buddha) or energy vampires, or black holes.
Energy goes in but never comes out
I’m thinking more along the lines of giant ticks!
I’d like to thank COB for the air I breathe. In other words Dave, go fuck yourself.
I like your style, Mikey! Keep it up!
Haha! I must admit that I did have a longish chuckle over your forthrightness.
I can attest to the incredible wins that come with running in circles. Yesterday morning I was running around the running track at the YMCA. The stock market had opened during my run and I postulated the market would be up for the day, the S & P closed a staggering 40 points higher for the day!!!
Hip hip hooray for COB and LRH!
I used to be a long distance runner, and I regularly got the runner’s high from endorphins kicking in on the run. And this was just a straight run on city streets, and it was FREE! What these runners on the Cause Resurgence R/D may be experiencing is the runner’s high from endorphins flooding the body.
I find laying down in one place for an extended peiod of time quite refreshing.
I try to practice this ‘tech’ at least once a day. Unfortunately, I tend to fall unconscious and lose track of time completely in this position. So I try to only practice this unusual mental state at night and set an alarm so I don’t miss too much of the next day.
Augmenting the above practice with a couple of glasses of wine rapidly produces the unconscious state very reliably.
It is a shame Hubbard focused on running, and completely missed this technology.
Kyle,
I think you may have found the true “way to happiness”!! You must market this amazing development and sell the course with all due haste. Make sure that everyone knows that it is the biggest scientific breakthrough in the history of all time and planetary galaxies. Also- let everyone know that there are multiple training levels so they will need to take several (read dozens and dozens) of courses to get the full impact!
Thanks for all you do!
COB
As a ‘never-in’ who reads this site daily, I thought I had a pretty decent handle on the “speak.” But that word salad Success Story has a few that I don’t understand. What in the world is “restimulations of facsimiles”? And “thinkingness”?
It drives me absolutely bonkers how they have just invented new words – which really have zero meaning. For a time in my life, I taught English As A Second Language – for the most part – that’s pretty basic English – just getting through life type stuff – my hope is they never have to deal with the language of the CoS. It’s hard enough explaining the difference between having a ‘record’ or being able to ‘record’ something on tv. (and SO many others like that)
IKR?? Thinkingness??
Now you’ve GOT it Sarah….you finally understand how it works….
the word “Thinkingness” got YOU THINKING! WOOO HOO….
You are now a perfect example of how their tech” works……NO!
Elizabeth,
He obviously wrote this after his run around. It clearly shows just how in control of himself he is and how he is a higher being with clear vision. Actually in reality he probably had a small stroke from increased BP and this is the result! Certainly makes me want to join in and run in circles (NOT)
I did the rundown sometime in 1983. I did not pay for it. I was on the PAC RPF at the time.
I enjoyed the rundown a lot.
There were a few interesting things that I recall about it that might be interesting to people here. One is that the “advices” said that this was the oldest means of thetan rehabilitation on the time track, (like about 197 gazillion years old), and that it was the ONLY therapy prior to Dn and Scn that had ANY value at all. (“Advices” were sheets of typewritten stuff that were written by Ron that did not yet have the sanctity of being issued on a broad scale as policy, bulletin, or directive, but that had the same validity to SO members as anything else that Ron wrote).
I enjoyed it a lot – as I did almost all of my actual Scientology auditing.
Note that I generally get a lot of condescension or criticism in these sort of blogs when I post such. If you care to jump in with any of that, go ahead! I have nothing on being criticized for my wins. (I guess I am of stronger stuff than many of my Church friends. I won’t roller-coaster or be cowed, I don’t think.)
At the same time, it will be good to hear from others who have benefitted as well from Scientology and who are willing to say so and still read this blog.
I think it used to be that Tony Ortega had a stance that he would not use the Bunker to demean the philosophy and therapy and that Mike Rinder would not be as well. My understanding was that the focus was to be only on the mismanagement of Scientology. Either I misunderstood them or that’s changed.
Did I misunderstand your intent, Mike Rinder, or has your overall intention for this blog changed? Wasn’t it initially only to reveal the crimes, problems, and hypocrisies in Church management? Has it now also become a forum to vent disagreement towards the philosophy and therapy as well?
Currently, Mike and family are enjoying a cruise with the Headleys and Smith-Levins (he mentioned it two days ago).
How often are you reading here on Mike’s blog that you still ask these questions (in your last paragraph)? Or are they just to make your point?
Most exes move on and get out of the Miscavige bad/Hubbard good phase and are confronting that Hubbard was also an abuser and a liar.
Some here from a witness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo5W0YbU0Eo
One is that the “advices” said that this was the oldest means of thetan rehabilitation on the time track, (like about 197 gazillion years old).
Do you believe that? Surely you can explain to me how a thetan without a body, a static, is circling around an object.
Why were you sent to the RPF? And did you enjoy the RPF or only the “Rundown” or the running in a circle?
I can’t answer for Mike or anyone else, but I don’t see any real benefit to anything in $cientology. While getting in better physical shape through running is a good thing for almost anyone, How does a truly spiritual Thetan benefit from physical exercise?
$cientology is full of dichotomies like that and just because Lron said it, doesn’t make it true.
The lack of financial transparency and over the top financial demands on members is just one facet of the currant scam.
$cientologies demands that its employees (staff and sea org) not use important drugs to keep them alive is another of the 95 Theses that need to be examined publicly. Throw in Lron’s claims of incredible health benefits from auditing and every aspect of the CO$ needs to be examined and debated.
Er, the spiritual being inhabits a MEST body. One can maintain the engine or not. I thought it was pretty obvious and only a complete fool would invent a “dichotomy” where one doesn’t exist.
Dan – I think you will find differing comments here concerning “wins” using scientology tech. I would never invalidate your wins nor mine. I’ve had many wins in auditing and refuse to invalidate them even though I’m completely done with this cult. I choose not to discuss them either here or on Ortega’s because I don’t feel or want to get into a heavy debate, I have nothing to justify especially to people I don’t know. And I’m not here to convince anybody about the “good all days” or anything else.
I think you completely missed Mike’s point. Basically, Dan, you can step out of your house right now go running around your house or neighborhood, etc. and also have great “wins” and highs but will have saved $5,000.00.
I believe the answer would be that the philosophy is inextricably linked with the management.
Dan Locke – come to PT. You can run around in circles for free. Scientology is nothing but a scam
Dan,
As a never in, it does help to hear stories about things that have occurred. It is also very helpful to understand the financial aspects that are ongoing. The salient fact that people are paying exorbitant prices to be told to run around in a circle- regardless of getting something out of it or not- needs to be aired. There is no other way for never ins to truly understand the insidious nature of this cult. The fact that fun is poked at some of the practices is a side effect. When you hear some of the bizarre and totally crazy things that people do to remain in good standing in a cult, hilarity may sometimes ensue. I think that everyone here feels bad for the people still caught in the cult. If you got something out of it, then that is great. However, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for the “privilege” and being forced to disconnect seems much more prevelent.
You can’t talk about the cult without talking about the policies, beleifs and abuses. They are all part and parcel of the entire thing. I’m sorry if this offends your sensibilities to some degree. It is no ones intent to make anyone ashamed. ( I am assuming that no one here is actually attempting to make anyone feel bad). However, the Full scope of the cult- from LRon Hubbard to Miscavage MUST be understood and shared. L Ron was a sick individual who had an overactive imagination. He could be compared with Baron Von muchenhausen or Walter Mitty. His falsehoods regarding every aspect of his life have been publicized and are public record.
If everything was so great for you then why are you not a current clam member?
What were the negatives you encountered?
Good comment, Dan Locke. I also noticed the change in intent of the blog over time.
But the work Mike does exposing the crimes problems and hypocrisies of management, is so important. That has resulted in some good changes in the church because DM reads the blog. It is helping people wake up and leave and it is also preventing good people from being recruited into the SO.
Cindy, I doubt it is doing anything that you say. The people reading here are either i) already heavily disaffected, ii) are non-Scientologists but if they believe most of the nonsense they read here then would not be candidates anyway, iii) are still pro-Scientology (Tech etc.) but just read it for titillation purposes and to keep up with any news, iv) those people who have had no experience of Scientology whatever but find a forum where they can post to their heart’s content and take it up as a “hobby”, v) and me of course, well, alright, Marildi, Cope Officer as I recall, perhaps Dan Locke above and one or two others like me (sorry Dan if I tar you with my brush).
As to numbers, there are probably only about 2-300 rabid anti-Scientologists worldwide of which less than 50 will be “hard-core” like the people who post here constantly and the Jon Atak types and the BBC reporter dude types who are making some sort of living about being anti-Scientologists.
About the only thing that will have changed from DM reading this and other blogs (if he does do so which is only an assumption although some commenters on here flatter themselves with the idea) is that any loopholes or chinks in the Church’s armor will have been sealed up and he will refrain now from smacking people in the kisser.
And because of the publicity from the TV show etc. there is always the chance that numbers will actually increase and/or it filters away A-Jers anyway. This is probably why OSA doesn’t really attack the site AFAIK.
@danlocke, IMO, none of the auditing that I got in scientology had any LASTING effect on me. I made it to OTV. The thing that did have a lasting effect on me was the mind shrapnel that was planted in my brain while in scientology that trips me up at the oddest times to this day.
I will not demean the fact that you enjoyed your auditing, that is your right, and no one has a right to think poorly of you for that. I, however, look back on those days and realize just how much of me I lost to the techniques that suppressed my personality and my feelings, and even over 35 years later, how hard it is for me to feel grief, or for that matter, even to yawn.
I will not and do not commend scientology practices and appreciate that Mike Rinder allows me to say that here. I do not believe this has become a sounding board for that, though. IMO, it appears to be a place where Mike allows people to speak their mind without the thought police telling them they are wrong for saying it.
When I left scientology, I still believed, I was also an arrogant bitch. The longer I was out and the more I realized just how much of me I had lost in scientology, I came to realize that most of what I believed were “gains” were not, but simply beliefs that were planted as mind shrapnel to make me believe that I was better than others, much like some of the teachings that I had as a youth in the LDS church.
I am not telling you that you are wrong. I am telling you that I learned to question what I learned and decided that it did not fit with the me I wanted to be.
You do not have to do this. I still respect you. You are who you are, and I hope you respect me for disagreeing peaceably with you on this subject.
I don’t know about any rules for posting, here or at the Bunker, except a recent request to leave the politics for some other blog. I have been critical of everything Hubbard, including auditing, with various levels of vehemence, and not been called down for it, and I am a very minor player when it comes to criticizing the tech.
How honest would it be if a blog critical of Scientology failed to address the elephant in the room, i.e., Hubbard pulled it all out of his ass for monetary gain and to control people. He changed horses and contradicted himself more often than he changed underwear. He told lies so obviously from his science fiction short story career, so incredible and unbelievable that only a person fully brainwashed in the manner of a high control cult would suspend disbelief and give credence to them. The ideas he did not make up out of his fevered imagination he stole from others, who were no more correct in their theories than any 50s-era sources who pontificated rather than researched, and usually were later proved to be mostly or wholly incorrect in their theories. I could go on, but I think the picture is clear about Hubbard himself, and where he sourced his imaginary mental health and religious theories, his rundowns, his window washing technique, his idea that children are fully developed adults in small bodies, and all the rest of his writing.
Your post reminds me that auditing was popular for years, and some people who audited many years ago still feel they got wins. But times change. As best I can tell, the years since DM took over have included much more of the “mining” of session records to attempt to harm people with what they said in session, compared to pre-DM. The reports here and at the Bunker indicate a very poor average quality of auditor compared to, say, the years before DM started making changes. Then there is that other auditing, the one mentioned often, but not usually with a sense of “wins” – the auditing of sec checks, which make no pretense of confidentiality, nor really of being good for the person being sec-checked.
To be honest with oneself, to say auditing is good or has wins, one must include sec checks in the equation somewhere.
Ammo Alamo et al,
Please excuse my impertinence, but WHY is scientology so obsessed with so-called “wins”? it seems that every scientologist and scientology ‘news’ blog/page/media is only about supposed wins. What exactly are they winning at? Its not like they are super successful at anything they do- where are the world leaders, the social reformers, the truly great people who change the world for the better? Why is it so important to ‘win’ instead of just making something better, even if in only incremental degrees? That and the ‘higher status’ posts seem to be snobbery at its most loathsome.
Its almost as if they cannot abide being regular people, and only winning is to be accepted. Is this one of the ways that scientology pulls people in? I guess if someone views themselves with low self esteem then joining something that has the appearance of a ‘winning team’ is akin to being in the ‘popular’ crowd in high school. Most of us outgrow that by the time we finish college. Its like they cant stand to be thought of as part of the ‘unpopular’ group and feverishly work to maintain the illusion of ‘winning’. Is it a lack of self confidence? it just seems bizarre that adults are so obsessed with image. I know that some people- like Hubbard-(and Miscavige) are so insecure that they have to make up stories to feel important. Is that what is going on here?
I do not mean to belittle anyone on the blog, but I’m really curious about this obsession with wins and status. Was it always like this or is this something that evolved with Miscavige?
This is what happens when someone who doesn’t have a clue starts making comments off the top of their heads, especially when something positive is being ascribed to Scientology.
Kat – Introspecting on the past in a formal counselling session and coming to a new self realization or letting go of some misfortune of the past would be the goal of any therapy. That’s the simplicity of “wins”. When thrown into the overall mix of Scientology it becomes something else. When I was auditing people I took my job seriously and very few of the procedures on the lower Scientology grade chart were daffy duck as represented here.
Dan, it seems like perhaps you’re one of those rare people who would have gotten, made, or justified to yourself, something positive out of whatever you were involved in. In that case, your experience is neither typical, nor does it really tell us much about Scientology as it stands on its own, or as it applies to most who get involved.
It’s also possible that you’re one of those people who reconstructs your past so that you now remember positively, things that you would have been more negative about at the time. That can also be an effect of Scientology manipulation and indoctrination techniques, including the mandatory write-up of “wins.”
I can’t speak for Mike or Tony, but it seems to me that understanding has involved, and there’s now a tendency to view the abuses and the “tech” itself as inseparable. I’d point out, for instance, that auditing probably bears the same risks as the abreaction therapy Hubbard saw in the Navy and used as an inspiration* – and that therapy was abandoned because it was discovered to harm people in too many cases to be ethically practiced (besides turning out to be largely ineffective in the long term, in spite of producing seemingly-impressing cathartic experiences). If the therapy, or even the philosophy, inevitably leads to significant harm – and ends-justifies-the-means philosophies almost inevitably justify harming people in pursuit of supposed greater ends – it’s not just “disagreement,” it’s exposure of inherent dangers and abuses.
How do you account for the very large number of people – almost certainly the vast majority of those who have ever done Dianetics and Scientology – who had negative to absolutely awful experiences, or who at least decided that it wasn’t worth continuing? Are you one of those who believes that the harm to some – perhaps those seen as being weak-minded for having gone “PTS” during auditing or processing – justify the gains that a perhaps mentally stronger person like yourself thinks you got?
* The outcomes of auditing need to actually be properly researched, but all the cases reported such as on the ESMB threads, point to the likelihood that it is as risky as the early therapies that Hubbard observed and copied, and possibly worse because of his attempts to increase intensity in order to try to produce impressive-seeming phenomenon like “exteriorization” (disassociation, which, psychologically, is just one step short of a psychotic break): http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/how-many-people-went-type-iii-ie-had-a-psychotic-break-in-your-org.38005/
I still use some of the things I learned in Scientology every day. There is some good stuff there. That’s why some very smart people get into it. Some of it works pretty well. It’s really not your run of the mill cult. But what it’s turned into, and even what it was in many aspects, got me the hell out of there. But I still use the stuff that works.
Haha! Well said Dan! This very fair comment will throw the “Kat” in among the pigeons! There will now be a general hissy fit and panic stations at someone proposing a straightforward proposition and mentioning something positive. Cue Brian Lambent (sic) the Bright spark and Jesuit George chipping in with all sorts of invalidation and panicking that any lurking A-Jers might change their minds and actually do some Scientology instead of “lurking”. I see Kat Rueful has already jumped in, No-Wynski will be there soon, and who else? Roll up, roll up… get your invalidation in soonest!
The irony is, is that Mike and his cobber Dave are mostly responsible for the current ethos prevailing in Miscavige’s church and then he creates a blog complaining about all the things he and his cobber set up in the first place.
” I did not pay for it. I was on the PAC RPF at the time.”
Dan’el you have me ROTFLMAO ????
Dan, it’s supposed to be about the abuse of scientology, Instead, we often veer of topic with political nonsense and attacks on scientology theory and words mostly by people who never even tried to understand what hubbard was talking about or incapable of learning anything. Every subject develops its own terminology and symbols which must be learned before the subject can be understood. The subject of astrophysics would be difficult to learn if the only words known were from a cook book. I’m sure I will get attacked for comparing scientology to astrophysics which I am not. scientology is a difficult subject to learn and the people I knew who got involved (at least in the 1970s) were very able and had the perseverance to stick to it. In any event, OSA has an easy time of inciting rabble within the group. For that reason, I don’t hang here as often as I once did.
My point exactly.
The days of discussion about how Scientology might be reformed are history. The public views Scientology as the current Church of Scientology and wants it eradicated as does this blog.
Who are “the public”? Probably about 2-300 rabid people worldwide who think so.
I find this statement to be tone deaf and utterly clueless:
“Has it now also become a forum to vent disagreement towards the philosophy and therapy as well?”
Dan, you’ve been around the boards and have access to metric fucktons of evidence of the absolute destruction the cult has perpetrated upon every single person who fell prey to the lies of Hubbard.
What Scio hasn’t been harmed by disconnection, injustice, bait-n-switch, crush regging…. factor in the facts that Clear and OT are a total lie and fantasy, nobody is Exterior with Full Perception, people are wasting decades of their lives reaching for those fantasies. Scios are cowed, never speaking their minds if there is a question or critical thought, shunning every single branch of education, everything in the entire world unless it’s written or spoken by Hubbard.
I’ve been comm eved, threatened with declare, kicked out, brought back, gave hundreds of thousands of dollars, lost decades on staff, I’ve been lied to, manipulated, I was imprisoned and not allowed to leave, I’ve been humiliated publicly over and over, and have watched it happen to my dearest friends about me. I’ve had family members declared on WHIM.
BECAUSE OF SCIENTOLOGY I GAVE UP THE ENTIRE WORLD.
I consistently shut off admiring or enjoying anything about the “MEST UNIVERSE” I WORKED on it, daily. I didn’t go to college, I didn’t learn about the real world, I didn’t read books, go on vacation, didn’t buy a house or plant a garden, I didn’t go visit my Aunties and Uncles, I missed out on seeing my cousins and the children they had…
I CHOSE TO NOT HAVE MORE CHILDREN BECAUSE OF THE BRIDGE.
After 4 decades of loving scn …. my mind shattered and I broke free….as I peel away the nonsense bonkers junk TEK …that is so deeply embedded I doubt I’ll ever be free of it…. as I struggle to come to terms with the utter BULLSHIT that I gave my life to, …I struggle to not just walk out in front of a truck, the horror of the truth blistering my soul so that I want to scream and fly into a million pieces…..
I read books
I read blogs
I watch TV programs
I listen to Youtube Vids
to … come to terms, to gather information, to give support to those who used to be with me…and like me, “dedicated to clearing the planet” … to grasp desperately for that support..and hand…to help…
to …hope..that someday
I can forgive myself…
for being so gullible and giving up so much.
..
I get to do this UTR, so SCN doesn’t come along and take the rest away from me too.
…
So…Dan…. if you can have been around as much as you have, and still come off with this:
” Has it now also become a forum to vent disagreement towards the philosophy and therapy as well?”
You are not looking hard enough.
You are not actually fucking listening yet.
Rip,
Life is beautiful, and if you give yourself enough time, that will be more than enough. You have nothing to forgive yourself for- you are not at fault. You made a mistake- we all do that. You survived and triumphed- many don’t. You managed to save yourself and got out! Please let go of the past and look toward the good you can do. If even one person hears your story and sees something in their situation, it adds another impetus to someone else saving themselves. That is extremely powerful and is enviable. Don’t dwell on the years of abuse- celebrate your successes since you escaped.
The more you share on this blog and in other areas, the more you can become the change that you want to see in the world- that is a paraphrase of a famous quote from Gandhi- and it is so true- it’s something I see as a “never in” that speaks to the strength of those who escaped. I greatly admire you and all do the others on this blog- whether they have completely shed the brainwashing or not. You recognized the danger and managed to find the strength of will to leave all you had known. Dumping an entire beleive system must be one of the most difficult things a human being can do, so pat yourself on the back and be proud of yourself! Don’t spend one more second of your life feeling remorse for what was- celebrate what is!
Yes, your rant was all very well and I have some sympathy for you, especially if you spent some time on staff which you state. But the question Dan asked was fair enough – you are mixing the organizational flaws and abuse up with the Technology. Dan is not. Dan seems to be quite fine. You seem to be very bitter (and you probably are somewhat justified in feeling so admittedly), but nevertheless you are the one who is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Why don’t you contact an Indie group and get your case sorted out? At least get your rudiments flown so that all that is in your past.
Running in circles is for pantywaist dilettantes. Big Beings prefer to run around in pentangles.
Crap! I’ve been running in a decagon. Please, please tell me what class I can buy so that I may run in rectangular shapes!!!
Bigger beings prefer to run around galaxies.
Not me. Running cuts into my sittin’ around time.
Don’t travel without a guide. Douglas Adams made it possible in 1979.
Wasn’t it called “The Road to Nowhere”?
Actually….it’s the BRIDGE to nowhere…..you simply keep paying and paying and paying those HEFTY TOLLS (course fees) to get nowhere.
Like the childhood game…Chutes & Ladders…you manage to get to the next level & before you know it….you have to start all over again at the beginning….& there is a heft FEE for retaking courses you’ve already finished/passed.
That was LRH. Adams had talent.
Lol- love that series! (Movie not so much)
I agree!
Thanks Chris,
You just caused a brain fart that needs to be passed on to the demented midget. The new track needs to be a mobius strip so the victim can run endless loops. When they pass GO they have to pony up another $200, or get sent to ethics.
I have had similar wins in life with running. When I want to take a dump, I can NOW take a dump. Splat – it’s done!! It’s the same with going to bed at night – I decide to do it and I just go ahead and do it. No Q&A or thinkingness involved. Life has become SO SIMPLE!!! I’d like to thank everybody I know for this remarkable OT state I’ve achieved, and I would want everyone else in my zone and area to have the same wins in life.
Dr Mac – Flunk Flunk Flunk. Every Scientologist like Dan Locke, knows that you need a C/S order and a CSW signed off on by your supervisors before you can take a dump of go to bed.
Now write up your O/W’s, send them to Dan Locke, and wait for him to give you your amends project to make up the damage to Scientrickery and L Con Hubbard for being an ethics particle.
😉
No shit?
Yep! No shit! What the fuck are we talking about about? That third beer I had just kicked my ass.
Have another.
Dr. Mac,
Please send your check for $100,000.00 to me immediately! That breakthrough was not regged correctly and you are in out- ethics. (do I sound like a real scientologist???)LOL
Wow. That Success Story is one of the best and I don’t doubt Jeff Mintz meant it. I believe he had greater wins on the Running Program that he will have on OT VIII or that anyone had on OT VIII.
I think Jeff needs to get out more (Oh wait! He’s in the Sea Org.), maybe take a look around, to help him get out of his head or stop his run-away thoughts. This is the power of mindfulness in this New Age. Or working out in a gym. Or Yoga. Or Sitting and Walking Meditations. Or hiking a mountainous trail. Or…or…or…. But then those are free and no one asks you to write a Success Story afterwards and get a cert and applause or “atta boys” from anyone; these are extra added attractions that one gets from belonging to the church of scientology that add to the “high.” Until… the win stops, “case” rolls back in, the “facsimiles” come back and in Jeff’s case, his torturous life in the Sea Org warrants another go at the Running Program a few years or months or days from now.
That isn’t Jeff’s success story.. that is F.D.’s success story.. as posted by Jeff Mintz. I think F.D is the bloke who brought his whole family over from Europe . that Mike wrote about a few weeks back.
Yes, I stand corrected. The concept is still the same except that FD is probably not in the Sea Org.
I knew Jeff in 82 when I worked at FSO. I don’t think he will make it to OTVIII in this life anyway so if he had “wins” from running around a pole so be it. I would not pay money for it though. I had a win on the Freewinds snorting genuine blue asbestos.
My main win is that I am still alive 17 years after Captain Napier told my wife that my death from AIDS was imminent; he was correct, but only because he had me taken to a chiropractor instead of a doctor.
I remember Jeff and Ann in the early 80’s. Still there plugging away as he watched the AO get emptier over the years.
Were you in LA in the early 80’s Mary? That’s when and where my family got involved and when some members of my family joined the SO. I was in college. Needless to say I didn’t get to finish. I remember Jeff and Ann too.
Dead men tell no tales,
That is definitely a win! I’m pretty sure you have a much happier and healthier life out of the cult!
Kat
And yet somewhere above or another article you profess not to have any idea of what a “win” is? Yet suddenly you do!
there seems to be a huge difference in what scientologists call a win and an actual win in life. I guess you cant understand the difference- if you’ve been told over and over that a win is something that isn’t actually winning anything, then I don’t doubt that you wouldn’t recognize an actual one.
This further proves my point.
A person (Jeff) who is at LEAST on OT 5 has gone through “lots of restimulation of facsimiles” doing the running around the pole?
[for non cult members that should not be possible for a person even much lower in scamology than where he is at OT 5, thus he is really saying that it is all a scam.]
Running or jogging was at one time believed to be a way to achieve good health and reduce strokes and heart attacks.
One of the most important things to know about running or jogging is that many people suffer injuries to tendons, ligaments and muscles. Since people who are IN this scam almost never have any valid health insurance and since The Scam never provides any on-site first aid or any first-aid at all, be warned that you are highly “at risk” of serious injury when you engage in daily running or jogging.
Please ask yourself the following question(s) and I’d wager that other people here can add to this list of questions:
1) If you are injured when running, the injury is often made to a knee joint or ankle joint or some of the tendons or ligaments in the legs and thighs. If you are injured in a way that prevents you from walking or running easily, will that affect your job at all? Will you be able to continue working and continue earning an income similar to the income you earned before you were injured?
If not, beware. There is no way The Scam will compensate you. Financially speaking, you will be on your own. What will be the impact upon your household? Will you be able to continue living in your current home with your family? If not, be certain that the impact of a serious leg or back injury will not prevent you from living your life as before. Perhaps you can talk with some other people who have been injured and ask them just what kind of help The Scam has provide them. I think you will be shocked at the answer. I do not believe you will ever find anyone who was ever given any help after being injured while they were running. Good Luck!
“Perhaps you can talk with some other people who have been injured and ask them just what kind of help The Scam has provide them. I think you will be shocked at the answer. ”
OR NOT…. Remember that you’re responsible for any adverse effects caused to you; there’s no reason to expect scientology DO anything other than their usual: Confessionals to discover YOUR evil purpose(s) and motivators that pulled in the injury, PERHAPS an ineffectual “assist” of some sort, lots of evaluation about the state of your case that caused you to do that to yourself; ALL at the highest per-hour charge they can ‘justify’. Many thousands of dollars later, you’r body will heal itself (or go numb). Pain gone for the moment, you’ll write an unbelievable Success Story on how the way out was the way through. Win for everyone. The only better outcome is for you to realize that the way OUT is through that door, there, and then down the road to someplace, ANYplace else. Run fast and far enough and those endorphins will kick in and add to your sense of well-being which increases every mile from Flog you get.
When I was in, my friend told me about her husband’s health incident at Flag. He was waiting for session in the Solo Nots pc waiting lounge, and he all of a sudden was dizzy with rapid heart beat and shortness of breath. It was very bad. His wife wanted to call an ambulance. But Flag wouldn’t let her. Instead, they lay him down on the floor (wrong thing to do if it is a heart issue), and called the MLO. (Medical Liason Officer)
At Flag the MLO is just a young kid who has read the references in his hat pack. He is not a doctor and has rudimentary knowledge of how to take blood pressure and temperature. Mostly he doles out vitamins. So while this guy was in crisis, they brought in a kid who had no training in heart attack, stroke, or anything. The reason Flag didn’t want to call an ambulance is they don’t want the “bad pr.”
A different friend of mine had her first epilepsy fit at Flag. She didn’t have any history of epilepsy. But Flag then kicked her off base and said she cannot stay on base, not even in a Flag hotel. This was because of the Lisa McPherson thing. They didn’t want people dying on base and getting bad pr or worse from it.
“This was because of the Lisa McPherson thing. They didn’t want [MORE] people dying on base and getting bad pr or worse from it.”
Sorry for your friend’s epilepsy. It’s a tough disease to go through. A friend 35 years back had it. He was part of a group who socialized at the local Dunkin’ Donuts and we got good at spotting when he was about to go “grand mal” and helping him off the stool and to the floor without injury. Local cops got used to picking him up along the road when he seized while walking to or from the places he frequented. Since, I’ve of course paid attention to information about the malady that comes past. Sadly, there seems not to be any effective treatment / cure, but some meds can greatly reduce its impact. Hey,IIRC, didn’t JT’s son, Jett, die from them taking him off of his meds the ‘scientology way’? Definitely hope your friend has a better outcome than any of my extended family of friends & acquaintances has had. BTW, that friend from 35 years back found and married a wonderful girl who is far too good for him [as is usual in any marriage IMO. ] So, he’s had by a lll reports a pretty good life despite the inconveniences epilepsy has brought with it.