Another gem from the STAAD website.
Things have really slowed down there. It seems without weekly airings of The Aftermath, their reason for existing has become muddled. They liked to pretend they were some altruistic exercise, but it was clear that was just a cover to be able to attack The Aftermath and its contributors.
Nowadays their website is merely a collection of scientology talking points they use to try to convince the world they are “normal” and “like every other religion.” But when they are not the subject of discussion, they seem to lose interest pretty quickly in fighting for “others”…
But here is a recent piece from their “blog”. It forwards one of the big lies in scientology (almost as big as the “you can be any religion you want and a scientologist” and “there are no space aliens in scientology beliefs”).
Rodger Clark (whoever he may be) penned this piece entitled Why We Don’t “Believe” In Scientology
This is a massive lie.
He gets off to a rocking start: First of all, no one is expected to “believe” anything in Scientology. They’re encouraged to examine it, use it and evaluate it. They’re encouraged to compare before-and-after results of its application. But not to “believe” in it. What they experience for themselves is all there is to believing.
Sounds good in theory Rodger, but try telling that to your Course Supervisor when you originate that “I think there is something wrong with this Dating Drill, it is just not working for me, and in any case, if the meter reads on your emotion are you telling me I can fake it to make the meter read on imaginary dates?” Or try telling your auditor “You know, I haven’t found any workability in Time, Place, Form and Event when giving off Overts, I have found I feel better when I just tell you what I want to say and we go on to the next thing.” In fact, start ANY sentence to anyone in authority in scientology with “I havent found much workability in….” or “I have not experienced any benefit from…” Can you imagine telling an Ethics Officer — “No, I am not going to disconnect from my declared mother because I haven’t experienced how disconnection helps me in any way.”
He then sort of proves the point:
How many times have you tried to get through to someone who’s absolutely convinced of something? They will think, act and react, and factor that belief into everything they do and don’t do. You can sit there knowing “something” is not true, try to reason with them until you are blue in the face and get absolutely nowhere.
Have you ever tried to convince a scientologist that there is ANYTHING not 100% perfect and workable about the tech? Or that L. Ron Hubbard may not in fact have told the truth about everything?
His logic is, unsurprisingly, very twisted. Rodger “proves” his point:
Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, superheroes, witches, goblins and boogeymen. All things we may have believed as children yet reject as adults. There are the creation stories and explanations of ancient tribes passed along for millennia, until the advent of modern science when new explanations (along with our belief in those explanations) were born.
Rodger, have you heard about Xenu and the Fifth Invaders and the Marcabians? You CANNOT claim you “don’t believe” these things and remain in scientology. Hubbard said them, so they are absolutely true. Though you cannot know about them, you have to believe.
From there he dives headfirst off the canyon edge: But what about the more subtle and insidious versions of unexamined, unreasoned beliefs and convictions which we deal with every day? The constant pounding of negative stories in the news media makes people believe that the world is dangerous, despite the fact that the vast majority of people are quite well-intended. And then there are the endless clashes of political, religious and cultural beliefs, where much is asserted and nothing is resolved, and which so often end in wars and destruction.
Or how about the utter conviction that psychiatrists are all SP’s bent on the destruction of earth. That they are wholetrack implanters descended from the planet Farsec? Or that all illness stems from being connected to a Suppressive Person? Or that the only reason someone blows is because of their overts?
Now, you can claim that you have witnessed all this yourself and therefore it is not belief, it is experience. But that is not the real test. The real test is what happens if you say you DONT believe this and have not experienced it? Or any number of innumerable “givens” that are simply accepted in scientology as truth. A third party is always present for a conflict to exist? (So how come Tom Cruise couldn’t stay with his 3 wives so far?)
Then he sort of flips: On the other side of the coin of “belief” how many people have gotten over a medical condition by the placebo effect? How many people have become happy and successful by simply changing their environment or group of friends to one with more positive beliefs? Or by simply becoming educated with more accurate beliefs?
But if belief is good, then why are you including this in your essay about how belief is NOT part of scientology? Or are you now saying it is? Seems a bit confused here Rodger…
He then goes down another whole path of lies, now getting into the life of L. Ron Hubbard:
As L. Ron Hubbard researched the mind from the fresh, detached discipline of the field of engineering, the power that beliefs, convictions and conclusions have over a person’s mind, life and well-being became obvious. It was the most powerful force and the biggest factor. The problem to solve then became one of putting people in control of their beliefs and helping them gain freedom from convictions and beliefs which controlled their lives and which held them back and held them down—whether the insane beliefs of a raving psycho, or the more common beliefs born of ignorance and falsehoods.
This “research” has been shown many times to be inept at best, nonexistent at worst. He just “believes” what Hubbard has said. He now claims that the “tech” puts you in “control” of your beliefs? The more I read of his ideas, the more convinced I am that he is totally confused.
And he concludes:
While never demanding belief, Scientology addresses the subject of it. Freedom from it, freedom to change it, and freedom to put it to use. It assists individuals toward greater control and mastery of beliefs and convictions and, as a result, greater control and mastery of better decisions and a better life.
Weather Watcher says
Rodger Clark is the same brilliant blogger who published that blog with the picture of a KKK Klansman smoking a cigar and toting a rifle in which it’s claimed that people who criticize Scientology are on a par with KKK, druggies and other lowlifes of society. All because they “don’t get it”. One of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen online or anywhere.
Roger Larsson says
If John Bauer had said that his imaginaies had existed in the reality they had been real instead of art.
What happens when a counsiousness leave a body?
The story of beings making it to implantstations at Venus and Mars is art.
Robert King says
It’s a shame and scary thing to see how any one can be suckered into that type of thinking and mind control.
Hmm, a scamologist is communicating something. They are thus LYING. Axiom numero uno in scamology.
Zee Moo says
“I have found I feel better when I just tell you what I want to say and we go on to the next thing.” Lron borrowed from the Catholic Church the ‘sacrament’ of confession. Or just call it Freud’s talk therapy. For many people, this attention is very welcome.
Throw in an e-meter and you have the ‘science’. Science as in simple device that measures very little. Props are useful, that is why fortune tellers like crystal balls.
Personally, I think that Lron time traveled to 1968 and listened the Who’s Tommy.
All the time the needles flick and rock
No machine can give the kind of stimulation
Needed to remove his inner block
Go to the mirror boy!
Go to the mirror boy!
As for the rest of STAAND’s ramblings, they are lies. Liens that can only bring in the truly uninformed.
But, religion usually has to do with belief, doesn’t it?
So, the assumption that scientology is a religion falls apart with this guy’s confused rhetoric.
He should re do the student hat and clear his misunderstandings.
Calling FOOLPROOF on line #2……
Old Surfer Dude says
I believe in things. In fact, I believe I’ll have another beer!
Yeasty, hoppy, frothy beliefs😎
According to your fsith, so shall it be.
Sorry. It should be: According to your FAITH so shall it be.
Lousy spell checker!
George M White says
Scientologists are totally confused about their religion. The bottom line is that Hubbard claimed that we are controlled by “not too bright” space aliens who use telepathy to control us and our DNA. Hubbard admitted that he had not mastered this “cycle”. Hubbard further claimed that all of Christianity – God, Jesus, Heaven and Hell – was a series of implants by space aliens. Hubbard further claimed that there would be an inter galactic war led by him against the Marcabians – Clingon like creature in outer space.
Hubbard further claimed that we are all doomed on planet earth by these forces. He further claimed that he was the only one who could control it. Hubbard further claimed that he had mastered Satanic powers which were far superior to Christian values of love. Get real Scientologists. The most laughable part of your religion is that Hubbard further claimed to be Original Buddha and his teacher. This is totally laughable as he was using outdated translations. In truth, the ideas of enlightenment mentioned by Hubbard emerged about 100 years after the Buddha’s death when the religion split forever. So Hubbard picks up bad translations and links Scientology to a false notion of Buddhism. Hubbard was pathetic.
Joe Pendleton says
Brilliant post, Mike.
Actually, all you have to say very mildly and respectfully is , “I see things differently than Ron does about (art or education or music or psychology or ANY subject under the sun) …”
Ever hear of “The Disagreement REMEDY”?
And if it’s not a misunderstood word that causes you to disagree with anything that LRH ever said about ANYTHING, then you have earlier false data keeping you from fully understanding and agreeing with him … or you are PTS … or you are just an evil sonuvabitch yourself …
In 35 years of giving countless star rate checkouts , know how many times I heard someone say they disagreed with or just had a different personal viewpoint about something that LRH said? … Try NEVER.
Joe Pendleton says
And by the way, you can’t PASS a checkout if you are not in full agreement with what LRH said, which means you could not progress on or ever graduate a Scientology course.
“And if its not a misunderstood word…then you have earlier false data…or you are PTS…or you are just an evil sonofabitch yourself…
I lol’d, Joe. So true.
Old Surfer Dude says
Hey! Are you saying that I’m a son of bitch! Well, are you! Huh? Really? So I guess am a Son Of A Bitch.
Joe Pendleton says
I’m gonna say … that you are just an Old Surfer Dude!
O/T. Kansas City’s Church of Scientology opens a Winter Wonderland: Is this some ploy?
* * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *
L. Ron Hubbard, the late science fiction writer and founder of the controversial and often maligned Church of Scientology, told his followers in 1968, “There was no Christ.”
Yet as of Saturday, a belly-laughing Santa and Mrs. Claus — the cheery embodiment of the Christmas spirit — are on full display at a tiny and twinkling outdoor Winter Wonderland at 18th Street and Grand Boulevard in the Crossroads, across from where the church in November opened a new, seven-story location in an old bank building.
The Wonderland, with a petting zoo, music and hot chocolate, is free and open to the public through Dec. 25. Grammy Award-winning jazz bassist Stanley Clarke and famed trumpeter Mark Isham are scheduled to play on its outdoor stage at 7 p.m. Tuesday.
Scientology’s critics (they are many and outspoken) claim this and other such Winter Wonderlands around the country are a public relations ploy to draw in followers and “normalize” a church long alleged to manipulate its adherents. Yet one church spokeswoman said it’s simply an event to celebrate the season, celebrate their opening and to make their greater presence known.
“First of all, I don’t know where the information about disavowing Christ came from,” said Bennette Seaman, public relations spokeswoman for the Church of Scientology of Kansas City. “Scientology is a multi-religion. You can participate in any religion and still be a Scientologist. I happen to be a Baptist, so I believe in God.”
She continued: “We certainly all celebrate Christmas. We certainly all participate in all the holiday activities in a big way. Most of the Scientologists I know, including myself, love Christmas. It is my favorite time of year.”
* * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *
I replied to the Kansas City Star’s tweet of the story with two tweets, tagging the author of the story.
My first reply tweet linked Mike’s essay, “Can Scientologists be Christians or Jews Too?”
My second reply tweet linked both Tony Ortega’s post on Xenu lecture and his YouTube video with the audio and transcript of that lecture.
Christmas has Nothing to do with Any Religion – it was derived from the Roman tradition of ‘Saturnalia’, which was simply a celebration of the Winter Solstice. And, I really wish y’all would Stop lending credibility to this criminal organization’s claims to Be a ‘Religion’; Call it by its Proper Name, i.e., COS = The CULT of $. Thank you.
Interesting data about the origins of what we know as Christmas being the pagan Roman’s celebration of the Winter Solstice, Belynda. Fascinating stuff. I read online that what we know of as Easter had nothing whatsoever to do with Christ and his crucifixion originally and instead derives from what were a series of pagan festivals of celebrating spring, i.e., new life, rebirth, fecundity of all kinds, etc., all ruled over by the Goddess Oester. Coloring eggs with vegetable dyes was one of the ways they honored Oester and her- get this – her rabbits! Fascinating stuff.
Thank you, Aquamarine- you’re absolutely right – in fact, originally, christianity originally forbade the celebration of these ‘pagan’ holidays, but in seeing the advantages to supporting their popularity, adopted them as their own, with religious connotations/ importance. In reality, Christmas and Easter are total religious contrivances.
Abby Ration says
And now we Pagans have taken them back and resanctified them for ourselves. In my family, we choose to celebrate Yule (Winter Solstice) as a sacred holiday and Christmas as a secular one, where we honor the delights of seeing, hearing from, and talking with family that we rarely see (my most immediate family is usually on 2 or 3 separate continents, so Skyping is a great way for the four of us to get together) and exchanging gifts of love and friendship. There is much to love and celebrate in the winter holidays no matter what religion we are, and we aren’t all the same religion in my family. Luckily, with no Scientologists in the family, nobody’s been ordered to disconnect from my mom, whose doctorate is in Social Welfare and who is eminently qualified to be a therapist if she chooses.
My tradition is *much* smaller than Scientology, but then, we don’t lie about our size, either. While we have been around since 1962 and do have a founder (we have two but one is no longer living), he is hardly honored the way Hubbard was; I was on the board of directors as the elected member at large when we had to draw a few lines that left him rather more separated from day to day functions than he wanted, and no clergy member has been able to make even an impoverished living with our tradition alone. Paganism isn’t a way to get rich or evade taxation.
Even more fascinating, Aqua, is how the east and the west observe easter. The western churches base easter on the full moon while eastern orthodoxy bases it on whenever passover takes place.
Thanks, Alco. I’d love to have the time to do nothing but study the origins of religions, beliefs and practices, etc., until I absorbed all there is to know. Like etymology, this subject is endlessly interesting to me. Meanwhile, with all my curiosity about religions, their differences and similarities, etc., per strict Christian doctrine I’m a heretic because I believe that Jesus Christ existed and was an amazing man, teacher and revolutionary leader (in a good way) but I don’t believe in the Virgin Birth and that he rose from the dead and the other magic. If I had lived several hundred years ago I would have been seized and burned at the stake 🙂
Aqua – ‘per strict Christian doctrine I’m a heretic because I believe that Jesus Christ existed and was an amazing man, teacher and revolutionary leader (in a good way) but I don’t believe in the Virgin Birth and that he rose from the dead and the other magic.’
I 90% agree with you – (was an amazing man, teacher and revolutionary leader (in a good way) but I don’t believe in the Virgin Birth and that he rose from the dead and the other magic)
The remaining 10% concerns whether or not he really Did exist – Jesus was an extremely popular name at the time, and there is belief (other than he didn’t exist at all – that biblical references to him are, in fact, allegorical) that the compilation of stories/quotes involve more than one individual. All this speculation is based on modern day scholastic findings/ opinions.
THANK YOU again! I too am aware of some of the data which posits that either Jesus himself did not ever actually exist. I haven’t yet read that he might have been several people but would be interested in doing so. As to the possibility that he might not have ever existed at all, I wouldn’t have a problem with that, if it were proven to be true. Know why? Because SOMEONE said, “You are your brother’s keeper”…”A soft answer turneth away wrath…Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you…Judge not, lest ye be judged…” You see, someone, or several people, said these things, and they were revolutionary concepts and in a relatively short time they changed the world. Essentially they are true and workable, if frequently difficult – quite difficult! to apply! Whether or not Jesus said them, or if there was no actual Jesus and somebody else said them, or if they could be sourced to several people, etc., these were and still are amazing, revolutionary (in a good way) concepts on how to operate in life! Of course as written they are open to very wide interpretation but I do believe that in their essence they are true and workable. Point being, from a workability standpoint its not that important WHO said them or whether or not the person granted credit for saying them was fictitious or not. From a workability standpoint I think all that matters is, “Does it work? Can it be applied?” Not easy, certainly! But Ghandi applied these principles consistently and taught his followers to apply them and got India free from British rule, and he wasn’t even a Christian! So there’s the workability factor, and then there’s the interesting stuff, tracing what was written to their TRUE source! To do this one has to be WILLING for it it be ANY person or people – one has to rid oneself of ALL prejudices, ALL preconceived notions and prior indoctrinations – again, not easy! But always interesting, to me 🙂
Alcoboy – you are absolutely right, but I think you have the timing backwards; judasim and the eastern orthodox religions both follow the lunar (or julian) calendar; that’s why they are always in sync with each other. The ‘western’ religions follow the gregorian calendar.
Aqua, Easter definitely has pagan origins and connections to fertility figures, though some of the specific theories such as about Ēostre or Ostara are open to question. It’s based on the “quarter” halfway between the Spring Equinox and the Summer Solstice, and in the Eastern Orthodox Church Easter and May Day (the actual pagan quarter celebration) sometimes fall on the same day.
There were a number of pagan gods popular around the time of the origin of Christianity, who had a mythology including some sort of rebirth, and so it’s speculated that Jesus’ resurrection story was created to give a similar miraculous aura. The resurrection of Ishtar or Inanna was also said to have been celebrated at the first full moon after the Spring Equinox.
And it shouldn’t be forgotten that Easter more or less coincides with the Jewish Passover, which may have been the most direct reason for early followers of Jesus to create an observance of their own around that time.
Thanks for your interesting comment, Peacemaker. It makes sense to me that trying to convert a world of pagans to Christianity was no small task and that Christian holidays were “positioned” with pagan holidays , keeping a lot of the same practices, and and well established traditions etc., to make it easier for them to become monotheists after having been polytheists for hundreds (thousands?) of years. For the same reason it also makes total sense that Easter was made to coincide with Jewish Passover. If I had the time I’d immerse myself in learning about religions and their origins. I’m particularly interested in the early Christian period between the passing of Christ and the Council of Nicea in the 4th century. I’ve read that Christianity had different sects and was VERY different during that period.
J.T. Marsh says
That’s been debunked many, many times. Christmas was not derived from the ‘Saturnalia’ festival; it’s merely a coincidence that Christmas is celebrated around the same time (though not the exact date) as the Winter Solstice. Actually, there’s considerable evidence that religious celebrations in Rome marking the solstice came about as a result of and in response to the growing popularity of the Christian religion and its celebration of Christmas around that time, as a concession to pagans. Christians did not derive their holiday from pagan practices; it was the other way around!
I’d be very interested to read the “considerable evidence” that pagan holidays derive from Christian holidays and not vice versa! Any suggestions? Where should I start?
Seriously, J.T, I’m not being sarcastic (as I frequently can be). I don’t see how what you’ve stated can be true but I’m honestly curious and I would read whatever you’d suggest because I really don’t KNOW and possibly what you say is correct.
J.T. Marsh says
The notion that Christmas was simply an attempt to co-opt Pagan Saturnalia and make early Christianity more palatable to Roman Pagans basically derives from a number of factors. Nearly all cultures throughout history have celebrated the winter solstice in some fashion, and every culture to which early Christianity spread had some form of celebration or holiday when Christianity reached them. Romans weren’t the first either! I don’t mean to suggest that Christians were the first people in the whole of human history to celebrate a holiday around the date of the Winter Solstice.
The date of December 25th became a holiday under the Emperor Julian the Apostate, who had been a Christian (came after Constantine) and had left Christianity to return to the Roman Pagan religion. Although we cannot know exactly when Christmas began being celebrated, we know that by the time Julian became emperor there were already annual Christmas celebrations on December 25 in Rome; Julian, embittered towards his former faith, chose this date in order to displace the new Christian religion and its celebration of Christmas. This was after Constantine had stopped the persecution of Christians.
It may seem more credible than it actually is because the Catholic Church has, much, much later, co-opted certain Pagan practices for this very reason. Mary worship, for example, derives from the Pagan celebration of the mother-son worship, and Pagan statues devoted to this worship could easily be repurposed to Mary worship. This doesn’t bother me since I am not Catholic and I do not regard Catholicism as essentially Christian.
J.T., I understand all you’ve said. Thank you for sharing what is all grist for my “curiosity mill” about the early Christian period beginning with the passing of Christ up until the 4th century AD when Constantine I renounced his own paganism for Christianity and ordered that everyone else do so as well.
Wrong – in fact, scholars agree if Jesus did in fact exist (and there is much dissidence over this fact), he was born in the spring/summer, not winter. Besides, paganism Predates christianity, by a Loooooooooong time.
Joe Pendleton says
Neanderthal Christmas even predates the pagans … Santa would come into the caves instead of down the chimney and a wooly mammoth pulled his sleigh … (In fact, one cave drawing has been translated as Rudolph the Red Nosed Mammoth …)
J.T. Marsh says
What the hell is ‘neanderthal Christmas?’ I tried to Google it and this post on Mike’s site is on the first page of results. LOL.
Joe Pendleton says
Holiday before the internet … Even before Charlie Chaplin movies …
J.T. Marsh says
There is no debate among mainstream historians about the existence of the historical Jesus. The only people who reject the existence of the historical Jesus are fringe extremists or non-experts. You either are making things up or don’t know what you’re talking about. Anyways the exact date of Jesus’ birth cannot be known; it is likely that early Christians chose a date around the winter solstice for its symbolic value, in that the days grew longer (e.g. less dark) after his birth.
Have yourselves a Ne-an-der-thal Christmas
Let your fires burn bright
Next year all those tigers will be out of sight.
Have yourselves a Ne-an-der-thal Christmas
Put your clubs away
Next year bears and tigers will be far away!
Once again in our caves we meet
To devour raw meat and gore
Anthropoids who are dear to us
Gather near to us, once more.
Someday soon we all will become Humans
If the fates allow
Until then we’ll have to muddle thru somehow
So have yourself a Ne-an-der-thal Christmas now.
Wait! Minor edit: “Until then we’ll have to evolute somehow.”
To: all SPs
From: David Miscavige COB RTC
Re: False data
FALSE DATA! FALSE DATA! THIS ENTIRE COMMENT IS NOTHING BUT FALSE DATA! WE DO NOT REJECT CHRISTMAS! IN FACT, IT IS ONE OF OUR FAVORITE HOLIDAYS! EVERY YEAR I GET TO SIT ON SANTA’S LAP AND TELL HIM MY WISH LIST! THIS YEAR I’M GETTING THE BRITISH THRONE, TAIWAN, AND A NEW LAMBORGHINI! AND WE DO NOT REJECT JESUS OR THINK HE’S AN IMPLANT! IN FACT, I’LL TELL YOU WHO JESUS REALLY IS! HE’S ME!
CAN’T WAIT TO SEE THOSE GIFTS!
COME ON, SANTA!
DAVID – STICK IT WHERE THE SUN DON’T SHINE ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Joe Pendleton says
Sorry Belynda, the sun always shines there … ok, that’s the tanning bed lamp …
Lol and eeewww at the same time!
Just Wondering 2 says
Interestingly, the same thing is happening at the new Columbus ideal org. We drove through their parking lot to look at all the pretty lights and noticed the parking lot was full, but there were no people anywhere. Inside (the building is predominantly picture windows) we could see 6 people. Decided the party must be in a private room. It was slightly eerie. Tents, inflatables, activity setups, and not a soul. Did not see hours posted anywhere, but this was 8:15 or so and it was only 37 degrees (which is great on a December evening, really). Pray it stays empty.J