Scientology is a study in contradictions. But it would seem even the most enlightened beings at the top of the bridge aren’t able to perceive even the most obvious of them.
Read this first message sent to OT VIIIs by the Senior C/S for their “next OT Levels.” Put aside there is no such thing, which they have apparently not realized yet, I wonder if they recall the “success story” they wrote after they completed OT VIII about how they were now total cause over the universe and had the full meaning of life revealed…
But hold on, these super beings who have completed the first of the “true” OT levels apparently didn’t achieve the gains afforded by doing Objectives, those “auditing” actions done at the very bottom of the bridge. So, in order to ensure they are “prepared” for the non-existent OT IX and X now they have to re-do their Objectives Processes. Right now!
But here is what leads into the sentence by L. Ron Hubbard quoted above:
Objective processes, properly chosen and run, bring the person gradually more and more into present time.
As the process is orienting the person in the present time of the physical universe and as this present time is not threatening, he has a time point and a location point from which to sort out his confusions. His attention has been pulled out of his bank and has been placed on the physical universe around him. Because it is the backtrack that is causing his aberration, putting his attention on the physical universe tends to de-aberrate him.
The backtrack contains mass and taking his attention off of this backtrack mass tends to lose it for him. But the masses around him in the physical universe substitute for the track mass and he receives a remedy of havingness.
Apparently the quote they use is taken a little out of context. If you cannot be brought into present time with Objective Processes you are not going to be able to progress up the Bridge and thus will never recover.
Now, this sounds like the same sort of thing that is promised to be cured PERMANENTLY by OT VIII — freedom from the “backtrack” and “bank” (though after Clear one is not supposed to have a bank) and thus be operating in present time.
In fact, here is a recent “success” from an OT VIII, see what she says about her “backtrack,”
And here is another recent one.
How long before these people are told they need to re-do their Objectives so they too can be temporarily freed from being stuck on the backtrack and brought to present time….
Insanity — doing the same thing over and expecting a different result.
lil' miss daisy colt says
somebody has an axe to grind.
the quote i remember (some 40 years hence) goes like:
“the most solid form of communication is a bullet.”-LRH
but then, I may have an axe of my own, of some sort, somewhere…
How do you spell “guillotine”? Let me confess straight-away:
I have no compassion for fat-headed cults.
This was an area of Scn. I found insightful. In high “ARC” (Affinity-Reality-Communication, together equated to U/understanding) communication becomes very non-solid — a glance with a loved one can convey a whole range of meaning. At low ARC communication becomes solid — bullets, and bombs, and so forth.
High ARC is sometimes correlated with love. Love is not “solid” — as Shakespeare put it, “Love is a smoke made with the fume of sighs.” When a couple (or a pair of nations, etc.) are in low ARC, per Scn. doctrine, communication becomes solid — blows, knives, bullets, etc.
As useful as this conception might be, I am not sure Hubbard should get credit, since so much of his work was plagiarized from others.
Whatever the case regarding ARC, I am not impressed with OT VIII, now that we have a number of people in this mythical state. If OT VIII really achieved what Hubbard said it would, OT VIIIs could demonstrate there abilities — which are supposed to be _objective_ and not just subjective. If OT VIIIs could adequately demonstrate those abilities, Scn. would experience unstoppable growth.
So either the OT VIIIs are withholding the evidence of their abilities, thus committing an “overt” (harmful or contra-survival act) that will result in the endless imprisonment on billions of thetans, _or_ the emperor had no clothes in the first place.
Take your pick.
Mike Wynski says
ARC=U is a theory that hasn’t been tested. I don’t think that it would withstand real testing either.
Doug Parent says
That piece written by Margaret Supak is very revealing in terms of the depth of lying and twisting to make her position even remotely tenable. No matter how much you dress up that pig, its still a pig. The depth of lying and deceit they stoop to is astounding.
The aim of Objectives is to get into present time. Let me explain my point of view.
If you are connected to a body. In a body would be the usual wording of that. But technically not necessarily true. But that is not the important point. Lets take sight sense as sample. If you are “looking” through your eyes (also not very precise wording or explanation of how it works) then you are not in present time. You see your surroundings with a delay of 300 or 800 milliseconds. I do not know the exact figure. But the electronics of the eye and nerves and the brain need some time to transmit the information and decode it. Finally you are 800 milliseconds behind present time. If you do not use your body perception you are in present time. It is a bit similar to airing of mass sports events in TV. The pictures you see are 3 seconds behind life event. Purpose is that if something happens the public are not supposed to see someone can flip to a different camera. That is censorship. That is all it is. Your electronics (not the brain to be exact) has also something censoring your perceptions.
Thus the purpose of Objectives is to get you into present time. That is all to that process. That is not using your body perception anymore and sense your environment without censorship. More present time is not possible. After that step subjective auditing is possible. As the censor is bypassed. If someone is in need of Objectives should be decided individually. Anybody (real auditor) that has the knowledge and know how can estimate the situation properly and act accordingly. As that knowledge and know how is long ago gone they desperately try to camouflage it by appearing to be competent.
Mike Rinder says
Can you explain why it matters to be 300 milliseconds out of “present time”? Never heard of this before and have no idea why it might be important….
Gary Webb says
Mike they are the most delusional people I have ever seen. They are in a fantasy land. And I don’t think they will ever snap out of it. They think that they are freeing themselves. When it is quite the opposite. Slave, that’s what they are.
The Dark Avenger says
This is one of the latest findings fron neurobiology, from the journal Cracked:
The problem with Schorsch theory is that even if one could think or make a decision without waiting the 300 milliseconds for the sensory data to get to the brain, making a decision takes a finite amount of time.
This research made me even more of a doubter of the immaterial soul which we supposedly are. We’re brains and human bodies, we’re this walking talking mass of zillions of cells. There’s no immaterial ghost in our body machine that is “us” the immaterial soul that is puppet like running our body, and we’re not this immaterial soul that if we do the full Hubbard Bridge to Total Freedom do we become able to eject at will out of our bodies, as per Defs 1 and 3 in the Tech Dictionary.
We’re the human body with a brain sans immaterial soul running this body and the brain isn’t just a pin cushion as LRH once said somewhere.
A life time of experimentation in daily meditation has proven to my rational mind, through direct experience, that consciousness, the witness, the observer, is different from the observed.
But to understand this, an experiment must be rigorously attended to.
That experimentation, like any worthwhile truth search, spiritual or material, has a set of procedures that must be followed.
It is only then that these questions regarding the true nature of personhood and consciousness can be resolved.
We can believe or not believe. But for the inner scientist, belief or non belief is still ignorance; not directly knowing.
But few there are, with the passion, interest or discipline , to make such an experimentation reveal its treasure.
Lost Dog says
I mean, all that is probably true. But…
people believe what they WANT to believe.
That is true, no matter which way you read it.
Which makes dealing with believers a rather sticky undertaking…
If you’re the sinister type, you can play around with that little tidbit of information.
Scientology takes the first step, by introducing itself as something you want to believe. (example: “We can fix that.”)
Getting you to believe in Scientology is more important than Truth to the controller of scientology, as it was with the founder. It does not take much research to realize the truth of that statement. In fact, I am having a tough time finding ANYTHING truthful when scientology is explaining or presenting ITSELF.
Getting you to believe in scientology is all about transferring control away from the believer and putting that control into the hands of The Controller,
all the while believing the polar opposite is true.
Take the existence of “The Bridge to Total Freedom”, also known as the stepping stone to OT3, as an ideal case example. Look at what that really is, and what you get when you finally “get there”. Now there is sacred knowledge you can take to the bank. Because nothing is more important than Truth, the singularity.
Yes Lost Dog, dealing with believers is not the same as dealing with those with confidence in knowledge.
L Ron Hubbard, being a believer and a dogmatist more than a knower was terrified of criticism.
So much so that he created a para military thug force to crush criticism.
True wisemen and women welcome criticism as it gives them the opportunity to share that confident knowing.
And being only interested in truth; wisemen and women may embrace criticism as a means of acquiring more truth if the critics have a point.
Seekers after truth are more interested in truth more than being dominant and right.
Criticism may indeed change the mind of a truth seeker.
It is only intellectual cowardess and spiritual un-adventurousness that hides from and seeks to destroy criticism.
In Ron’s case paranoia was also involved in his terror of being criticized.
as a first reading you can look at that:
Mike Rinder says
Hmm, I think you missed the point. It was not that I doubted that there is a delay from the eyes to the brain. Or that light doesn’t travel at infinite speed, so there is also a delay between when something happens and the light rays hit your retina. I was trying to get you to explain WHY this is important? Or how objectives solves the problem? Apparently this would only NOT be a problem if you were exterior with full perception all the time, which is not what Objectives are even sold to achieve. I agree with the earlier commenter, you seem to have way “overthought” this….
I withheld my ideas,
First of all, why it is important to be in present time. Let me define present time now as not having the body or whatever electronics in between me and the environment that is causing a perception delay.
Practical samples. Driving on Germany autobahns. 500 or more milliseconds ahead in time definitely are an advantage. When a driver intends to change lane then you have a bit more time to react properly. Or if a cup or whatever falls down the table. Then you are more able to get that part into your fingers before it hits ground.
Or in theory: If someone wants to handle or manipulate matter or physical objects as “OT” then he will fail as he is behind time. Simply spoken, the location where the object is changed and the object he sees is no longer there, even if the object “evidently” did not change the position on the table. Out of present time you cannot handle matter directly. It is not possible.
And regarding Scientology itself. Scientology is not always honest to you. Let me start with communication course. It is sold to be enhancement in communication. Later it is sold to be able to look through your eyes 2 hours without blink. The only and real purpose is to get you to be out of the body. Then you can, if you want sit there 2 hours without a burning ass and without a blink.
The pass is on ext not on sitting 2 hours on a chair.
The aim of the objectives is to get you into control of your electronics regarding your body. This electronics is not the body nerves or the brain. This is the body hardware. There is an upper level of electronics that you use to get into contact with your environment (perception) and you use to handle your body. (so called “Informations Medizin” [I don not know if that term is somehow used in US] use and knows about it in modern time and uses it to cure. SCIO or TIMEWAVER for example.]
Back in the 50ies and 60ies it was simply not possible to talk about levels of dimensions outside the 3 dimensional world or about information fields and stuff like that. So, LRH had to use different concepts and models of thinking to explain the “real world”. Now in modern time much of that is found out. But usually still not very broadly known. Therefore persons talking about it sound a bit “strange”.
Mike Wynski says
Schorsch said, “Thus the purpose of Objectives is to get you into present time. That is all to that process. That is not using your body perception anymore and sense your environment without censorship.”
Um, NO! The purpose of objectives is NOT to give a person the ability to visually view the world without using the eyes of the body upon completion. That is a complete lie. What made you want to tell such a lie. Even El Con didn’t tell such lies about the EP of Objectives.
Also, 800 milliseconds of delay doesn’t make a difference unless you are involved in some reflex contest with another where they measure that small of a difference.
Steve Aldrich says
You’re not 3 seconds behind a sports event when viewing on TV. The signal comes to you at the speed of light. Light can circle the earth 7 times in a second.
Leslie Bates says
So, you’re saying that sense data is invalid?
If so, how do you know that I asked the question?
Chee Chalker says
May I have some of what you are smoking/imbibing?
Schorsch, my take on your take of present time is that you have over intellectualized and over theorized something very simple.
Mike Rinder says
I’ll have what she’s having.
800 milliseconds = .8 seconds
So it takes almost a full second to realize what you’ve seen? I don’t buy it.
Neither do I. When I drag race the ‘Cuda, my reaction time is much quicker, and it is measured in thousandths of a second. I cut the light even better with the Hellcat Challenger.
Leslie Bates says
Let me get this straight–the senses are subject to the laws of nature–therefore sense data is incorrect?
So if I gain 800 milliseconds, then what??? It’s biology, not “knowingness”. Does it change anything in life that I hear the thunder before seeing the Lightning? Seems to me life has many important issues, this however is not a question for the ages and pondering it and trying to audit your way towards it seems an utter waste of time and brain cells.
Oh and “if you are connected to a body” come on, I’m no OT but that’s ridiculous.
B.F’s “interesting win” caught my eye. Once my husband told me something very similar: that when he took his regular commuter train, he felt that the people on board were really nice people, and he had more affinity for his fellow passengers when before they pretty much annoyed him. He felt like that after he left the church of $cientology. He didn’t even have to redo his Objectives or OTVIII!
ok, ok let’s see… i’ll go with monkey number… Two, for everything!
Ann B Watson says
Hi Mike,I have walked on my path further into the woods. Yes interesting and different. Yet a magnet keeps me pulling back to your site. I am not hyper-sensitive or whatever.I just know where my home is.xo
mark marco says
If there’s an OT in the audience please
find my car keys. I’m late for the show.
Chee Chalker says
They are in the pocket of the last jacket you wore.
You can send your ‘Thanks to Chee for preserving the tech’ note and a check for $250,000 to Mike. He’ll forward it to me.
Jose Chung says
Your wife hid the keys because the show has crummy reviews
and does not want to go.
Salty Lollipop says
Catherine says she tried finding truth is religion but it didn’t seemed right. Isn’t Scientology a religion?*
*No. It isn’t. But I thought it was funny how she contradicted herself.
Leslie Bates says
Christopher Hitchens actually called Scientology a racket.
(Lawyers unleashed in 3, 2, 1…)
And if you follow strictly and in a KSW 100% standard application of the tech any technical staff, and surely the OTs as they have also studied this material, one also knows that unnecessarily redoing a level that has been flat already only causes overrun, i.e. the person is going to create more, and more, and more mass so he has something to run during the over-run action.
No wonder they can go forever doing and redoing things;they have accumulated enough mass of the overrun to keep on going forever.
Elegant Mess says
Is it compulsory to thank COB in one’s success report?
Joe Pendleton says
Though I was originally very taken aback and mystified when I heard about this whole objectives scam a few years ago, after much reading about and observation, I now see that these OT 7s and 8s actually NEED the bottom of the bridge. That’s how bad off they are as beings by having agreed to become circuit machines, absorbing and then spitting out on demand, implanted attitudes and ideas.
There are two advantages to Miscavige in putting these “OTs” back to the bottom of the bridge where they belong. 1) of course he has something to currently reg them for to keep the immediate cash flow in, and 2) he gets to at least get these robots DOING something in the CoS and getting SOME case gain so they don’t all leave, do nothing and infect and ruin the very tiny field that now exists in Scientology.
And oh yeah, he gets to reg them for “OT9/10” … as me departed pa used to say decades ago … “what a racket.”
Joe Pendleton says
After thirty five years in, involved with the tech area of Scientology and ten more years out in observation, I would say that the KEY point that has made “OTs” NOT OT (and there is more than one point of course, but if I had to pick one) is the “lack of courage” bred into them by the third dynamic of the Scientology world and their own agreement to be complete effect on the 3D while at the same time mocking up that they are in fact completely self determined (now if THAT played out contradiction doesn’t make one slightly insane and incapable ….).
I could easily name a hundred people or many more as examples of the above. I’ll just name two people I met and was friends with from 1970 San Francisco, Lance Whalin and Kathy O’Gorman. I think it was in an “anti Rinder” video that Kathy O appeared in last year or so, and I could see a formerly strong being so shockingly at effect and controlled that it was almost embarrassing. Of course, 45 years of being in the GO/OSA will do that to you thousands of times over. Lance Whalin, what can I say? A former “tough guy” who became a complete weakling as a being as he continued to “go up the bridge.” And Dennis and Wendy Negley … OTs??????? They were in better case condition in 1975.
After decades of deciding, on one matter after another … to give up any independence of thought or action and to lose the personal integrity and courage to disagree and be one’s own person … you get …. Heber Jentszch. (and Shelley of course … Where’s Shelley? The answer is quite simple … she’s nowhere … just like the individuals I mention above and many more)
Well trained herd members dutifully going whichever way they are herded.
It’s just Scientology movement group control.
Miscavige is just executive C/Sing and if none of the OT 8 completion super Scientologists aren’t playing along and pretending ecstatic OT 8ness, then they get to redo everything.
Tech Downgrades Policy is being implemented on them.
Well, has anyone seen any real OT 8 who can do OT things?
Then they must redo their Bridge.
Times over equals something and their best conclusions would be that they are snipe hunting and wise up and quit their OT hunt.
Further, I think there ought to be a
“Quit The OT Snipe Hunt Rundown”
which consists of reading Chapter 22 of Marty’s 3rd book, “Meanwhile Back At The Ranch” where Sarge details Hubbard’s final months of life.
and, also read the last 3-4 pages of Lawrence Wright’s book, “Going Clear…” where Wright interviews Sarge.
and watch the “Going Clear…” HBO documentary movie, specifically the section where the film of Wright interviewing Sarge takes place.
The current OTs in Scientology who wise up and realize they have never attained any supernatural OT powers, and are willing to wise up further, then do the above
“Quit The OT Snipe Hunt Rundown”
correction, Chapter 24 “Meanwhile Back At The Ranch” of Marty’s “Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior” priceless history book.
Joe Pendleton says
Chuck, if I may say so with all due respect, I think you’re missing the boat a bit with your numerous comments over the past couple of years or so regarding “super powers” and “soul flying”, etc. YES, of course LRH indeed talked about that a LOT in the early 50s and put it on the big old red and white grade chart (when abilities gained were still printed for the OT levels) and also yes, these buttons were pushed big time in Advance mag certainly in the 1970s.
BUT … most Scientologists did not REALLY expect to be fully at cause over MEST and fly out of their bodies at will all over the planet and beyond (eleven years of CSing tens of thousands of sessions and never heard these desires). I’m not even sure most Scientologists REALLY ever thought they could recognize the source of problems and make them vanish (all problems as an ability).
BUT ALSO … what I think most Scientologists wanted (and I include myself in this and I’m guessing I could include you as well) from the upper levels certainly was at least the following: some sort of certainty on themselves as an immortal being apart from physical life and death cycles (and most Scientologists actually asserted this in the lower levels) AND (this is where the rubber meets the road in my opinion) THE CERTAINTY AND THE ABILITY THAT ONE COULD POSTULATE ONE’S OWN LIFE AND FACE LIFE WITH GREAT CONFRONT AND COURAGE, WITHOUT BEING THE EFFECT OF THE PAST. (and also an ability to accurately observe and perceive what is happening in one’s own and others; universes).
That’s what I wanted (and I got a bunch of it, actually still growing in that at age 65, electing myself the source of my life as much as I can). But I think we can all agree who post on this site, that the vast majority of “OTs” in the CoS do not evidence the certainty and abilities I noted in the paragraph above. I have my own ideas on why this is so, but for another time.
Hi Joe, I am not trying to make you wrong here, but that was not my experience when I was on staff for quite a few years. Most Scientologists I knew, DID expected at some point, to have ACTUAL OT abilities, one of them being Exteriorization with full perception and mobility, and being able to actually feel sensations while outside w/out the body’s vias.
I mean, practically ALL my friends looked up to that as their main goal for OT 8. Your description of what Scientologists “really” wanted, does not align with my own experience with a little over 3 decades in Scn.
And LRH never ever changed the definition of OT, as far as I know, and I have a full chronological understanding of Scn. OT has always been defined as “A being at Cause over matter, energy, space, time, form and life”. And LRH described such a state in great details, not only in the ’50s period as you said, but also at the BC and at the original class 8 course.
So let’s not attempt here to tone down what LRH did said.
The fact is that LRH was one of the WORST examples of “OTism”, for the simple reason that it was HIM that researched it all, and thus, he was EXPECTED to have the full EPs of everything that he develop. And OBVIOUSLY, he did not. What more proof is needed to establish that it all was mostly hype, and a pipe dream ?
Of course, I am not negating the possibility of the actuality of such an state of OT, but Scn has never been the route leading to it. But according to the Oldman, it was. That’s called FRAUD, whether it was intentional or not. Fraud, as Scn is SELLING a product, it is not giving it away as Buddhism, for example, or non-dualism (with the EXCEPTION of these modern “gurus” like Adyashani) are.
And add to that, that Scn probably is – and WAS during LRH’s reign – one of the most expensive psychotherapies on this planet. I mean, $300k ± to OT 8 ? Incredible expensive, but with a product that anyone can probably get with EFT Taping techniques and/or some form of self-hypnosis (w/out drugs and getting unconscious). The first one could be self-applied, as well as the second one, and if one practitioner from either one is ever needed, it could be found for as little as $75 for hour. Scn currently cost around $200 in the Indie field. What a joke indeed!!! A bunch of delusional individuals leaving the eternal sleep.
Correction, I should have said, “A bunch of delusional individuals living in an eternal sleep”.
Forever Lurker says
thetaclear, I’ve studied this subject since the early 70’s as much as anybody I’ve ever met. Have a very clear and detailed view of the whole of it and have done both the old and new OT levels to the top. Fully trained with thousands of hours in the chair.
You’re 100% dead-on correct in your conclusions.
The “OT powers” were the only thing that I would have sacrificed the direction of my entire life for. Nothing less would have been worth it. Thank god I pivoted out of Scientology in the mid-90’s and salvaged myself financially for my older years.
I digress. You’re spot on, as always.
Mike Wynski says
EXTENSIVE surveys of Scn public showed this also (doing the bridge to get super powers was why the overwhelming majority of public stuck around) which is why El Con ordered Advance Mag to have the “OT powers” in the first place.
This is what Annie A. (Advance Mag Editor) told me in the late 70’s.
yes. thank you.
Theta Clear says
Thanks for your reply and validation, Forever Lurker. I am glad that you salvaged yourself for the older years. I have a few friends that did not, and now are struggling financially. You know how it was, “Flow to your Bridge and you’ll get the flow back”; yeah right! A flow of bankruptcy perhaps, certainly not a flow of abundance.
Scientology does deliver some positive results if carried out by good auditors who can think by themselves and know when”Standard” Tech stop being Standard as each case is different, unlike LRH attempted us to believe. The mechanisms of aberration might be more or less the same for every individual, but the way to properly address them, might vary from individual to individual, and there is where “Standard Tech” becomes a door stop.
Regarding the “Dream of OT” as you described it, I think that it is a reachable state worth to continue to pursue it, but Scn does not have the answers to it. I’ve been looking for those answers for quite a few lifetimes, and I would like this current one to be the one where I can finally find those answers. If I do, it’ll be available for everyone to inspect, test and decide by themselves, in a totally “free of any charge” manner.
But such a state of Full OT requires – as is primary step – a life of incredible high degree of ethics and moral standards. W/out such a prelimary step – sort of the Buddha’s Virtue beginning step of his “Noble Eightfold Path” – one would never ever even understand the responsibility level that such a state requires. “With great power comes great responsibility”, and that who is not ready to carry the honor, would remain oblivious of it all.
LRH attempted to produce a state on others – and on himself – w/out the ethics of it all – this high level of KRC towards life and others; the wisdom of understanding and proper behavior – being in as the FIRST prerequisite. And that is not achieved through silly Sec Checks, where imposed “moralities” are being enforced. That can only be achieved by a very high degree of self-discipline and personal integrity, that very few are willing to practice. Unless one can learn to love and respect others as much as one love ourselves – or even more – the road to higher spiritual levels and abilities is totally barred by nobody else but ourselves.
LRH just concentrated in the “Tech part” of it, and totally forgot about the “wisdom and self-discipline” part of it, misguidedly thinking that the state of OT, all by itself, would bring about a high degree of responsibility for others and life. But this was not the case at all. That high degree of responsibility for others and life is a VITAL step, BEFORE we can even understand what OT is all about. And thus, he failed in his attempt.
Been There says
Joe, I am floored by your articulation of the hopes of Scientologists who ventured up the Bridge. THAT IS what I wanted. I am still working on achieving it. And THE thing that increased my ability to quest for those goals is the confront and courage it took to break free of Scientology after almost 40 years in.
Excellent post, Joe.
Joe, I started my stint in the cult in 1975 in SFO. What you describe about the individuals (Lance Whalin and the Negley’s) and the aspirations of many of us at the time is accurate IMHO.
I recall when Louis Schwartz and his wife Maureen divorced and she left the cult I was befuddled. Maureen was an excellent staff member. And then the ED Roy Selby was declared and booted. I should have paid close attention and gone with my instincts rather than listen to the sirens.
But I wanted some of that eternal wisdom promised ……………………. all I can say is be careful what you wish for!
I’m with thetaclear on this one.
I got in during the 70’s. I expected to achieve clear and then I would no longer be effect of the reactive mind, – always rational, no bad feelings to squelch and overcome, fully able to control my thoughts, feelings and emotions, there would be no BAD emotions to overcome, those would have gone poof with the bank. And I’d have no hang-ups either, no introversions to stop me.
From OT I expected to be able to leave my body, be fully out and able to operate as a thetan. I would have certainty on my future as a being because of the abilities I would have and be USING.
I wasn’t sure I’d be able to move MEST around and make things appear and disappear, though Cleared Theta Clear would give me those abilities…..so that would be fun…
I got in so that I could fly.
The culture that attends scientology is such that we DON’T sit around talking about these hopes and dreams and our concerns for why we’re not getting that stuff.
“No talking about your case” is a broad broad rule that stops much.
It’s not addressed in session really either. Sessions cost too much, let’s just run the process and hope!
There’s much that could be said and described about how in fact one COULD carry on for so long without seeing those results, explanations from sups/staff, wrestling with it, figuring it out, “the research trail” and “undercuts” answers and so on… But
I think for myself at least…I think I was able to stay in and continue to play whack-a-mole with inconsistencies, to never really question it…
I didn’t want to lose the dream.
The minute you really step back and see, it all goes poof. There’s no road back. It’s like giving up Heaven. Mummy and Daddy aren’t coming home …. ever.
There’s no heaven with BBQs and lake houses.
I’m not going to go mock up my own planet and populate it with friendly rabbits who play with me. No rivers of hot chocolate or thetans flying in formation.
We were schooled in not voicing hidden standards.
A. Indisputable Leader
B. claim to special knowledge, which is also indisputable
C. demand for total loyalty and dedication and personal sacrifice, including labor
D. maintains an “us-vs-them” mentality, regarding the outside as inferior
E. discourages contact with anyone outside the group, again because they are “inferior”
F. is willing to sacrifice you for the good of the group
Check, on the entire list.
My chief complaint about scientology…
is that it is a creepy, sinister cult.
and the outside extreme of “personal sacrifice” would be donating one’s well-deserved retirement,
Your retirement gift after 40 whatever years of service: a short speech, which goes like:
You’re on your own.
Sorry, if you were expecting a “thank you”.
We, the ones that got out, truly are the graduates of scientology.
The outside extreme of “Discourages Contact” with anyone would be severing you from your folks.
Which is always pretty tough luck, for everyone.
“Willingness to sacrifice you” has extremes. Thank god the Mayans ran out. Damn, we still got scientology?
How is that even possible. If you get off the planet now maybe they’ll still include you in the history books at the dawn of next century, assuming we make it of course.
As opposed to “Don’t get out now”, which, well, you’ll just wind up being totally forgotten, on account of the cosmic embarrassment. So, that’s like you are already, but worse, the outside extreme of “worse”, which I personally believe is what you are, and what you deserve. Extinction.
Then to be erased from the books, Egyptian style.
“We, the ones that got out, truly are the graduates of scientology.” – a very, nice concept. True, too.
Someone else said it here first, credit due…
’tis quite wonderful…yes!
ah, yes… akin to touching the finger upon privileged knowledge…
that kind of wonderful, yes indeed. Like knowing a Secret the moment it is revealed, or like knowing a wildfire that came close to home is dowsed. Wonderful learning.
And so, feeling evermore secure, I am a graduate, the future bright.
Leslie Bates says
My win for today was finishing Chapter Five of the novel.
“And Erin is now here, in the present time, growing up in Toronto. She has no idea of what’s about to happen, and I have no way of telling her.”
And I look forward to doing Chapter Six.
<b."You can't say can't to The Primary!"
Robert Lee Herald, Primary of CET (LRH)
Tom Provenzano says
I was wondering if anyone knew how much at OT 8 has to pay to re-do the objectives? Back in the 70’s these were part of the HQS course which at the time was around $125.00 at the NY Org. It seems to me if it was this important they should offer the process for free since it was not offered correctly in the first place. Not that I believe that. Are they just that hard up for money that they have to start these folks back at the bottom of the bridge to nowhere?
Mike Wynski says
“Are they just that hard up for money that they have to start these folks back at the bottom of the bridge to nowhere?”
Yes of course. As there is no Bridge to OT you have to do something to extract $ from those fools who slogged all the way to the “top” and are still around. If you don’t keep the carrot dangling even these fools might leave forever.
Scott Henderson says
As it has been explained to me many times, NOTHING in the CoS is free. They would charge for GATII air if they could.
… “hard-up” for money hardly describes it.
And all they are selling is air. Toxic air at that. At least with pet rocks you got something for your money.
Tom, apparently this topic has come up before. These are not just objectives, these are THE OBJECTIVES, the ACTUAL ones that LRH wrote for Mankind a long time ago, that each and every mission, org and field auditor on the planet delivered wrong to the public or just never delivered to them at all, thereby denying them the gains they so deserve as part of their OT hatting. Remember, Objectives come BEFORE Grades and Grades before NED. There was a time on the Bridge when when Dianetics came before Grades. Remember the Org Board on 74th Street? Everyone was Grade IV but none of them Clear. I am not laughing about it but the Grade Chart sure has changed over the years Tom.
Mary Smith says
$2,500 for a co-audit. Thousands if you do it with an auditor.
You have to buy the full SRD for 5 grand – (it may be 4 grand, I forgot what I paid) All around Flag AO you have highfalutin OT Class 99 auditors walking PCs around the org with a clipboard, “in session” and delivering paid-for Objectives. Intensives are now 5 grand a crack. (they lowered the prices with GAT II and changed sliding scale etc) You gotta do 150 or more hours of the SRD so paying for it by the intensive is stupid, but there are TONS of people doing just that.
as for giving it for free, hahahahaha!
There were public at Flag who had just finished their auditor training when GAT II was released. Every single person does every single course over again and pays full price.
You finished you St. Hat last week? Too bad, you’re paying FULL price and get to do it over right now. Pro Trs, Pro Upper TRs, e-meter course, levels…etc etc. Pay for everything and do it all over again.
“You have a problem with that? Don’t you want standard tech? You support COB don’t you? You know he has now made it all standard and per LRH? You don’t think you should put in exchange for KSW technology? Every Flag auditor is doing their training from the bottom up….”
(except of course, without dictionaries and there’s not GAT II internship yet, and SHSBC is gone, and and and)
I’m surprised that people didn’t just explode, brains all over the walls, from the pressure of not bitching about it.
“Are they just that hard up for money that they have to start these folks back at the bottom of the bridge to nowhere?”
The orgs are hard up for money. David Miscavige isn’t, but because he has no OT 9 and 10 to peddle he is hard up for ways.to keep his upper bridge sheeple in the pen – thus the circular bridge.
please don't call me The Commador says
Bridge into the Infinite Abyss
I Yawnalot says
I just couldn’t force myself to read too much of the above. What an introverting head trip it is to follow the antics of Scientologists. I’ve got a couple of card carrying OT8s in the family (still love ’em regardless) but they avoid me (self imposed disconnection – which of course doesn’t exist) like a bad smell, I’m far too quick to question them on life. However, they are quite pathetic and sad really and resemble a beaten pet. They cower at any inference to their religion (which btw is 100% on their attention at all times) other than what they want to hear and duck to shelter immediately if things don’t go right for them, broke as they are.
The first line from the CS’s letter says it all for me really just how introverted they really are, re “… your future as an OT in this universe.” I’m not promoting Hubbard here but by my reckoning he raved on and on about getting your own universe back, even the text book heading of the PDCs (Scn 8-8008) is a formula to acquire your own ‘personal’ as a Thetan, freedom and called it OT. The MEST universe has some serious promoters and the Cof$ is right up there with the best/worst of them. Scientologists have no idea what their religious goals are or were. To repeat objectives and other actions previously completed is the antithesis to their own technical codes.
The Church of Scientology is not interested in anything else but money and Miscavige, and they really don’t care how they go about it. What a bunch of losers they are and don’t know it.
Old Surfer Dude says
+1! Excellent post, I Yawn!
Call Me Snake says
Is it possible to complete OT VIII without thanking David Miscavige?
Jose Chung says
Quit Scientology and do it as an INDIE
Much less expensive, standard tech and more wins.
Is it possible to sneeze without thanking cob? Seriously , I haven’t seen any success story that didn’t thank cob.
Old Surfer Dude says
Only if you want to make the Hole your permanent home…
I hear it’s not so bad now. Less ants….
Lol! I read somewhere that he had mattresses brought in.
Jose Chung says
Taranculas replaced the ants.
Doug Sprinkle says
That was good
contact deceased, snake. Dead terminal.
..listening to the “wins” at Friday Grads and Thursday lunch/dinner comps and stuff, it was sooo painful sometimes, and funny, to hear people awkwardly tacking on the requisite, “and thank you to COB and RTC for blah blah blah”.
Course there were also those misty-eyed sycophants who would lay it on realllly thick, It would make me queasy.
Thank you David Miscavige for insuring the demise of scientology shall be soon and absolute.
(that’s not too thick, is it.)
I Yawnalot says
Is it possible to be a Catholic and not recognize the Pope?
Leigh Andrews says
Pope Francis does not have the power over the lives of individual Catholics that David Miscavige does, which is a scary thought. Part of the reason is size. If you have 2500 parishioners in a town and only ONE priest, possibly with lay ministers, there is only so much that priest can do. The main impact that the Vatican has on the lives of Catholics is the “Peter’s Pence” Collection, which is taken ANNUALLY and goes to support the Vatican. Each parish is assessed a certain amount by the Diocese, and if the second collection doesn’t yield enough, the parish has to make up the difference. This was $1200 a year in 1977 for a parish of about 1000 families. The Vatican also publishes various encyclicals on various subjects that are available on line for free and the few Catholics read
A term that goes back to my childhood is “Cafeteria Catholic”,which is someone who picks and chooses among the doctrines of the Catholic Church, believing in this , disbelieving that. If the Vatican wants people to come to church, they have to tolerate dissent, however grudgingly. Despite having fallen away from the Catholic Church, I still enjoy visiting cathedrals.
I believe that Miscavige’s greatest “power” is the sunk cost fallacy. Scientologists believe that there must be a pony after shoveling all that manure for so many years as they went up the bridge, only to be recycled through it.The trap is that there may be some things in Scientology that work that were stolen from various parts of psychology and other fields. For the same money, Scientologists could build a pretty good house or put their children through college. Insisting on building infrastructure when there is little demand for services will drain the few remaining Scientologists. I’d like to think that there is a point where self-preservation kicks in, and they say “Enough!”, but the potential for loss of family keeps people there.
Only if you enjoy spending hours in ethics, sec checks to find your CI and giving lots of money to the IAS. Also, you’d have to improv it because there’s no way any SO member would approve a OT success story script without bowing and scraping to DM, because then they would get sent to the RPF.
Of course they believe in the upper ot levels. Lies have been told about them since long before LRH died, whoops I mean left his body to discover more upper levels.
It’s like when a favorite book series or movie series is finished and the fans can’t believe it is over.
Meanwhile the first letter writer has to invalidate everybody’s gains without them noticing to sell them another ticket on the merry-go-round.
Flag tried to re-run me on my objectives and I walked out of session…causatively! No auditor could get in my way. With all the causitive things I have done in my lie since my objectives originally, more would certainly overrun me.
This is truly a joke. I am grateful I got declared when I did so I don’t have to put up with this crap!
Thank you for being her Mike Rinder!
Correction: With all the causitive things I have done in my life since my objectives originally….
Thank you for being here, Mike Rinder
I walked out at about the time, too. As I said to another scio, I got it the first time, thanks. I just walked and walked and never went back. Nor have I ever looked back.
Objectives must be the most boring thing to do in scientology; and the most patronising and insulting.
Margaret just sounds sooooooo certain that she knows exactly why these OTVIIIs haven’t started their Objectives again yet, doesn’t she? “You have Q&A going on in your life!” “You have counter-intentions!” Geez Louise. And the tone that she takes with the recipients: “You will start your Objectives NOW!” “If you don’t eat your meat, you can’t have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat!?” What a fucking bitch. And there’s no real reason why she has to be that way other than the fact that she’s getting pressured to get someone, anyone done on their Objectives, so she’s taking it out on OTVIIIs.
Since I threw in the Floyd reference, let me just state that Roger Waters actually did explain (on The Final Cut) why the teacher in The Wall behaved like a complete asshole to his students: the guy was suffering from what we now call PTSD from doing things like participating in the bombing of Dresden, and there was no treatment for such conditions back then. Scientology has actually accomplished something rather remarkable: they’ve created a cult where everyone has PTSD and no one recognizes it because L. Fraud didn’t talk about it. It’s utterly obvious to us, with the bitch letters like these and the “success stories” that sound like messages from ISIS hostages. But they don’t recognize it as a problem. Since it’s not a problem, it’s not something the Vaunted Tech is designed to handle. Thus it spreads like a plague.
My OT Over Nine Thousand Success Story:
I was running late for my flight this morning. It only took me a couple of minutes to find a parking space at long-term at O’Hare, which is something that would defeat an OTVIII. Then the security line was cooperative, and it turned out that I had just enough time for a venti latte from Starbucks before my connecting flight to Minneapolis. Then it turns out that my flight from Minneapolis to Billings was only two gates away from my flight to Billings, a true miracle for that airport. Then after I got to Billings, my motel room was ready early, and the wi-fi’s pretty good for a roach motel like this. So I was hungry and decided to check out Trip Advisor, and the best place to eat in Billings (that Trip Advisor had listed) was a hole-in-the-wall burger joint in the downtown area only a mile from the motel, only open for lunch. I had enough time to get there, had no trouble parking, and got a burger that really was to die for.
Beat that, OTVIIIs.
Wow that’s truly some achievement list!
But, admittedly, I did gain an hour going from CST to MST, so I had more time to accomplish all of that.
Maggie Condon says
It’s such s double standard on the ship. Russ Mckevitt is an OTVIII from before it came out “again” as expanded OTVIII. Public were made to redo so many things to get to be “eligible” again to attend things but the staff like Russ and Margaret could still claim their previous OTVIII. It must give a big missed withhold if questioned.
Lisa Whytock says
Missed withhold? How about, big fat lie. Starts with Ron’s own history, all the way through to his alcohol and pill popping…to his paranoid hiding out with Visteral having to be shot in his ass to keep him calm before the heart attack in his van he hid in. His military record as well as embellishment of his life…a lie.
Mysterious deaths. I got into Sea Org at LA base a gal for Flag. She was part of Lisa McPherson Fort Harrison death. She was scared to death ( was an ex nurse). Most staff who were part of it were quickly and quietly fitness boarded out. They got away with murder, btw.
When they got rid of a particular auditor…the huge SP, the one who audited Ron…that’s when all changes started. “New tech” on the old tech, redoing what was done, L’s, which are actually from already ot levels. But…no actual “next” OT level. Why? Probably because, 1: Ron was too far gone 2: They got rid of real auditor .
Ron was heavily into occult. His son mentioned there was either scientology or satanism in the house.
I’m pretty sure Ron at some point of the bridge has lessened Jesus and elevated “the light bearer”, which would be Satan.
I was amused that a cognition could be indexed to a card file for each audited thing to see the “ep”. My red flags were going crazy at Flag. You go in to get past life folder…”there was a fire”…SO members telling me of upset having to re-audit from beginning. They had no new stuff…hell, the old stuff was so filled with lies.
Auditing is a type of hypnosis, auditor is in control…unfortunately, the end result was not a freed up person. I have never met any audited person, of any level, who was any different than any other person. They were lighter…of their cash.
I hope you’re out of the clubhouse. I spoke to Mike Rinder as well as Debbi Cook awhile back (knew them when I was working ias and recruit help at LA base and Flag)…Mike made a point that folks should just write their own SP declare…send to Miscavige. BTW…he’s an evil prick, aggressive bully.
So many lies, deception, control games, children abused as well as marriages ended that didn’t conform to scientology goals.
Remember Henry with IAS? Last I saw him he was in RPF. Crime? Had cancer. Final? At end routed him out with $100, and no place to go. Died shortly afterwards, homeless.
My time in Scientology was just wasted time. Mike and I look back as, “what a huge mistake, but at least we met”.
Hope you’re out and doing well.
“You will start your Objectives NOW!” “ ” What a fucking bitch”
Oh that made me laugh.
Yes, I this is one of really FUN parts about not being involved any longer. Oh, I don’t have to be bossed about and talked to like a really bad asshole parent bullying a child.
I LOATHED that aspect. I loathed being told what to do, what I “needed to do”. I fought back quite often and pointed it out. I was a real doozy to deal with, but still – still still still – this type of tone and ordering about is par for course.
they assume they can tell you what to do and ask you any personal question they want.
Secret, Your comment almost makes me wish for an MAA cycle with Alphonso or Jasmin at Flog just because I have things I would say to them that they missed out on.
…..gooo on in and sit at that couch, wait your turn, and do it. doooo it. 🙂 🙂 Wouldn’t that be a hoot? 🙂 🙂
Gus Cox says
Yeah, “You need to…” “…Right NOW!!” “START!!!”
Fuck you, Margaret.
Oh, and “only now do we have the full range of processes…” Yeah, like 60 years later they finally figured out where the Fatman stashed them. What a crock of hot steaming dog shit.
Yes, the OT VIIIs better thank David Miscavige, who’s here to recover the “lost tech” that somehow the Fatman misplaced, and to fix all his other fuckups.
Harper, B. Tweetor the Third says
“FEAR AND LOATHING INSIDE THE BUBBLE”
i said that just for fun. Call it the maybe-title for chapter 3, FUN!
Thanks for the word, secret4.
BOOKS BOOKS and yet another book, RUTHLESS.
Life is rich.
Espi, all you would have to do would be to add, “And my space has totally opened up and there is no more counter intention in my environment” to the bottom of what you’ve just shared and I could send it in to Advance Magazine.
Great post, Espiando
Dollar Morgue says
At the risk of sounding facetious, I suppose OTVIII abilities do not include getting back in comm with the dearly departed or knowing their whereabouts?
On a more sober note, perhaps she was love-bombed in the midst of her grief and loss, and sold her ticket to happiness aboard the Feewinds. Hit them when they’re down.
” How long before these people are told they need to re-do their Objectives so they too can be temporarily freed from being stuck on the backtrack and brought to present time….”
About as long as it takes to return home and start receiving calls from the Oh Tea Comittee to come in and take responsibility for getting the next Ideal Morgue fully funded and operational. I think it is called ‘owning the problem’ so you can single handedly solve it. After a couple of OTC meetings and a few IAS Call to Arms you should be ready for a full re-do of the do-do.
I wonder if any of these prisoners of belief ever stop to wonder who this C/S Margaret Supak is? What is her case level? Is she some sort of magnificent super duper OT who has some special knowledge that enables her to evaluate the state of case of people she’s never met. Did she do a folder study and determine exactly which objects are appropriate? Or is she just following her fearless leader’s orders and selling this package because she’s being ordered/forced to?
Has she done all of HER objectives via the new SRD? Or is she too tired and ill-fed to get a session?
Since these objectives have been culled from old tapes and bulletins (nothing new) do they ever stop to call BS on the “never before available” line?
You really have to suspend any and all logical thought to stay in that group.
Just find something to be ecstatic about and la de da your way though the success story. Oh, and don’t forget to smile for the camera while you grovel at Davey’s new John Lobbs.
Yeah, without any kool-aid onboard as i read the letter I was wondering “IF this is what LRH meant, why didn’t he say so in the first place? And, how does COB know better what LRH meant than he did himself?
She’s the Senior C/S on the Freewinds and has been since the late 1980s.
So the OT 8s will know her.
She’s speaking to them, they all know her, she C/Sed them on their OT 8 over the decades.
One of the stable FSSO tech people.
Bob Anderson was my C/S on Oh Tea Ate. I think he is now on tours regging for nine and ten.
Yeah, we’ve seen laugh-o-grams from various orgs about Bob Anderson on tour to promote OTIX and OTX Preps, along with some bumfs from the Failboat about Bob being ready to C/S OTVIIIs on their “next steps on the Bridge”. It sounds like OTIX and OTX is a two-person operation right now, which really, really says a lot about the con job that’s being performed this time.
Ed Hamerstrom says
Margaret Supak (American, I believe) was an auditor and C/S in AOSHEUAF in the ’70s and is probably close to 80 in age now.
It’s interesting reading these things from an outside perspective. I have a hard time putting myself back in the position of those who still want so badly to believe that they are powerful and know all.
I remember the worst “withhold” I ever got off in session was “I really don’t see any pictures in my mind, I don’t see myself in any past lives.” Even with that “problem”, I made it all the way to OTV, because I wanted so bad to be all powerful.
I am not all powerful. I need people around me who love and support me. That’s what makes my life better. I shudder to believe what I thought of myself when I was in the bubble.
Worse, I shudder to remember how I viewed others. Nothing in the world can make you a better person when the culture you are in demands that you consider yourself superior to others.
…I shudder with you.
I shudder at how it was all built to make us separate and apart, aloof. It’s a bridge to Arrogance, not freedom.
Even those of us who wanted to stay humble – who thought we WERE humble, we got out and realized that we too were blind and arrogant.
I’ve lost all my status. Every single accomplishment for almost 40 years now means nothing. .. and it’s actually quite freeing. I value not one thing from it. every course comp, auditing comp, auditing win, pc audited, upstat, hat comp, etc … every year on staff, no longer pinned to my chest telling me who I am.
I’m just me, no better or worse. I’m an air breather who likes to pet kitties and will make you a sandwich.
I shudder, too.
Elegant Mess says
Willie AKA Good Old Boy says
One should use, if one wants to, knowledge gained by others to better one’s awareness, if it works for you great if it doesn’t throw it away. Be your own judge as to what helps you or not. The ability to make things go right for oneself and his dynamics is the true measure of OT. One should at some point as an OT be able to be on his own and be independent and handle his case with his own self determinism.
Its time ,OT VIII’s, to get off the tit and grow a pair.
What’s to be done on OTIX? If captain Savage would ask me to come up with an idea i would suggest: auditing all the BT;s in the universe. OTX would be as-ising the universe, so that it will disappear (this will have to be done by a minimum of persons at the same time) and OTXI would be an extended non-existence formula in the Theta Universe. On OTXII we will meet Hubbard, who is God by then. On OTXIII we will be sent out to create new universes, to start the game all over again, lest we starve from boredom.
Joe Pendleton says
Sara … you’re like in the OT 30s here. OT 9/10 will no doubt be some very simple processes. Actually, all kidding aside, you know what WOULD work and take some of these OT8’s to a higher level of ability as beings? (and this is based on LRH ideas as well) … have them pick out various LRH datums and DISAGREE with them (and come up with reasons for their disagreements). Think about that for a while.
OT 8008 for OTVIII’s: just one question till full EP: ‘What in Scientology could you disagree with?’
Run with E/S to original postulate. You know, just like NED.
EP would be something along the line of: I don’t need Scientology anymore! I can fly with my own wings.
And the success would likely read something like ” and F%@k you Cee Oh Bee!”
On flying, all I wanted was convincing proof that ANYONE in human history could actively exteriorize, live, and demonstrate it convincingly.
That would prove Cartesian Dualism, for me.
Show convincingly that the soul was indeed like LRH says in the “Parts of Man” chapter of Fundamentals of Thought, the human is broken down into soul, body and mind.
Mind consists of the negative part, the “case” that Scientology processing addresses and seeks to eradicate enough so that the soul regains it’s soul true horsepower.
The experience of out of the body exteriorization is key to my getting into Scientology.
The dualism (soul and body, or soul and mind and body) sold me.
I wanted Scientology to deliver on that promise of demonstrating through the L Rundowns, the same old LRH claim that the Ls if properly run like LRH C/Sed and had them run under his supervision on the Apollo, as repeatedly and STILL advertised in the Flag Source Mag when that mag does the L Rundowns ads, that LRH promise of not letting an Ls completion leave the ship without exterior with perception, or full perception, and THAT is the personal proof that a person is a viewpoint/soul exterior, seeing the world as a pure soul, that to me was the hooker for Scientology’s Bridge to me.
Class 12 auditors and Class 12 C/Ses I pressumed produced exterior Scientologists by giving them the L rundowns.
Simple as that.
It was so deflating, so sad, when Karen delaCarriere told me that no one got those results nor did she observe that the Cases LRH C/Sed left the Apollo in that state that LRH claimed.
I truly hoped and had faith that Scientology was delivering good on the promise to exteriorize their members, routinely, with sufficient consistency and convincingly in that the wins told by those that reached exterior with full perception, or exterior with visio, were sincerely honest and telling the truth, and they had some ability to go exterior at will.
Definitions 1 and 3, in the Tech Dictionary, I read them about a thousand times in my Sea Org career. Defs 1 and 3 are so crystal clear, about the thetan being able to operate with or without a body, that is crystal clear proof of what Scientology I thought was doing.
I’d still be happy if the freezone were to make the claims of LRH in the Source (Flag’s Source Mag) Mag true.
That’s then make my faith in Scientology legit.
I lost my faith in Scientology based on the point of Defs 1 and 3 of Operating Thetan in the Tech Dictionary not being convincingly produced.
PS: One of the key letdown moments was on the Int RPF, I was reading the Encyclopedia Britannica and reading articles on word chains, and I read one phrase that mentioned that past mystics trying for the out of the body experience only had that experience 1-3 or so times per their lifetimes, and often they had it and never could regain it again. That staggered me, as the fleeting and infrequent meager 1-3 times full exterior blown out of their heads mystic experience of Scientologists I’d heard from fellow Scientologists, matched society and history’s mystics. It’s fleeting. LRH was untruthful in saying he could do Defs 1 and 3 of Operating Thetan, since no Scientologists are like Defs 1 and 3. They are like the Encyclopedia Britannica says. I further learned that out of the body experience is hallucination, and learning that really bummed me out, and doused my faith in even the mystics long historical claim that the out of the body experience was thus proof that a person as the pure soul, could eject out of their bodies.
It’s a brain hallucination, that ended my spiritual quest, that’s just me I realize, Joe.
I’ll stop complaining.
Chuck, it’s therapeutic to read your words, as they so mirror my own hopes, desires, and reasons.
I need party tricks, at this point. I’m just done with it all, done with all hope and ideas. I don’t give a rat’s ass. I’ll take hamburgers and quiet nights by the fire, and to hell with the rest.
If someone wants to impress me, I need party tricks in spades. Full on magic, if I even bother to turn my head to look.
I skipped the whole, “Indie” part and went right to beer and cheese and screw the rest.
I’ve wasted enough time on this nonsense.
Joe Pendleton says
Chuck, you’re an American, so you never have to stop complaining! It’s in our DNA (this is my conclusion as an ex pat, living outside the USA for seven years now, even if I do get back for yearly visits).
Anyway … to the matter at hand … in his two hour anti-Scientology rant (just watched it again last week for the first time in five years or so), Jason Beghe mentions going ext on TR 0.
My gut feeling is that the creative energy that is so often expressed by humans, is not physical and does not perish at a person’s death. Why do I feel that way? If for no other reason that it doesn’t make any sense that it WOULD perish after just a very few years of a person’s physical life.
Am I COMPLETELY certain of tthat? No, I am not.
I’ll probably get attacked for saying this, but I was able to exteriorize when I was 8 years old. This was before any drugs, medications, alcohol, or anything else that wasn’t supposed to be in my body. I had full perception (sight and sound). I was wide awake. I thought everyone could do this, so I never told anyone. I never left the confines of my bedroom and, thinking about it now, I don’t know why I didn’t try.
Many years later, I read about exteriorization from Hubbard and that is the reason I got involved with scientology. I wanted to be stably exterior at will. That was my stable datum that scientology worked.
So, I spent the next 40 years and several hundred thousand dollars trying to get to the place I was able to go prior to scientology.
While I was being audited, the auditor would get reads on ‘Out Int’ and I would be audited on the Int Rundown. This happened over and over. Something was wrong. I did not have a problem with exteriorization or interiorization. But I would be interrogated about “not able to get back in”. In my mind, I may have thought that “Out-Int” meant exterior hence the read but I became really confused about not being able to get back in.
Scientology couldn’t help, even after I told my auditors that rehabilitating my ability to exteriorize was my hidden standard that would prove to me that scientology worked.
Chuck says all he wants is convincing proof that ANYONE in human history can actively exteriorize, live, and demonstrate it convincingly.
From my perspective, that can never happen because his statement is a “prove me wrong” statement. I could not ever be stably exterior at will. The state, for me, was very fragile. I could never do it if I “tried”. It would just happen. I could see every detail in the ceiling corner of the room from one inch away, which was 8 feet from the floor. The experience was just as real as me sitting here typing it up.
I write this not to prove anything but only relay a personal experience which might open one’s mind to the possibility.
Rip Van Winkle says
I pinned a lot of hopes on someone else’s description of being exterior. I now file such things under, “something someone said”.
“You poop pink Unicorns? cool. Let me know if any of them ever sticks around long enough to see them” Until then..I’ll be over here doing something else.
Miss Q says
I had a friend in college once tell me that she’d had an “OBE”–out-of-body experience. I thought, ‘Huh. That’s interesting, I guess.’ I never had the slightest desire to have it happen to me, and it befuddles me that people adopt it as such a compelling (and fucking expensive) goal.
No judgment intended. I’m just completely not grokking any of it.
Thanks Peabody. Your experience is in line with practically all experiences I’ve heard of exteriorization.
I had a misconception, a false misconception, I thought the soul (we each are the soul that runs our body definition that Hubbard gives in the “Parts of Man” chapter in Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought book), us, the soul, I presumed that one had visio all the time, when “exterior.”
Today I believe the out of the body experience is an hallucination, and I forever was barking up the wrong tree for some some state of being exterior with full perception.
Clearly, Hubbard has not been clear about the soul being exterior, and I jumped in with my misconceptions that drew me along all the years I presumed OT Scientologists were exteriorizing at will, at the upper levels.
It’s a messy bunch of misconceptions, I’ll admit supplying my own hopes that this misconceived “exterior with full perception” I exaggerated hopefully as the goal to attain from Scientology.
False hopes (misconceived on top of it) died hard for me.
Chuck, thanks for your comment.
Before scientology. I thought I had a soul (brought up Catholic). My mother told me, more than once, that if I were bad, my soul would go to hell. I told her, what do I give a shit as long as I don’t have to go.
One of the very first things I read from hubbard was that I was my own soul (thetan). Big difference it made for me.
I was a course sup and several students had experienced exteriorization while on course. In one case. the person became quite upset. I sent her to my favorite auditor to check her for out-int. She did the int rundown and when she came out of session, she ran out into the course room and put her arms around me and said, “Wow, how did you know?”
In the beginning (1969) there was enough there to convince me that there was a lot I did not know. I got to know a lot of OTs who were willing to share their experiences with me. OT II was a big deal for them at that time.
LRH phased himself out and david miscavige took over.
As a result, scientology has gone in the tank. I have read many of the wins since then and they sound like total bullshit only so that they can start the next level to, hopefully, solve the problem that they came into scientology for in the first place.
Doing scientology was tough back then. My twin and I did more than 500 hours of TR 0 the hard way. Ten hours per day, seven days per week, for two months, blinkless. People were taking so long that the “Blinkless” was removed. I think Otto Roos may have been involved in that decision.
When I finally did it, it seemed like only minutes. I realised that the only way it could be done was by being in present time, time stands still. Later, I thought that the minutes were the periods I must have gone out of pt.
Today, scientology is bullshit. I’m only glad I went in when there was some gain to be had.
Lori S says
“Reversely, omitting or quickying these crucial steps could be at the root of any case failure…” Margaret doesn’t like quickies or dictionaries. Her use of language is quickening the demise of Scientology!
Scott Henderson says
Good point Lori, I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps CoB hasn’t had the time (what with him doing everything) to release the GAT II Websters yet.
Deluded OTs are deluded. If they were so perceptive, they would have noticed the scammyness a long time ago. All of GAT 2 is just a revenue enhancing measure to keep the mOrg lights on.
The pics from the OT convention shown here recently really show the state of OTness in the clampire. People aging out and no one to take their empty seats in the scam.
It’s like Children Of The Corn combined with Benjamin Button, with a dash of Rosemary’s Baby. If it wasn’t a total laugh riot from all of the footbullets, it’d be demonic.
Well, once completing the SRD and now TRULY being in Present Time, I think ALL OT VII and OT VIII completions should have to re-do VII and VIII because they weren’t really in Present Time when they did them before.
Old Surfer Dude says
Absolutely, Mary! These slack artists were NEVER in Present Time when they did them! They should be put in a lower condition like the, “Well I really fucked that up,” Condition. I say make them stay on the Frightwinds for one full year without ever getting off ship. That will get their ethics in….
I beg your pardon! 🙂
Oh come on Cooper – only makes sense!?
Don’t give DM any more ideas, Mary. He’ll get rick off your idea.
Jose Chung says
George (Georges General Store next to AOLA) went OT8 on the
Freewinds and stopped smoking, then flew to RIO for a week on the beach.
Thats about it, nothing magical beyond looking at bikini clad babes sunning themselves
and not buying cig’s.
Old Surfer Dude says
Wow! Am I ever lucky! I only have to drive to my favorite surf spot to see bikini clad babes sunning themselves! Am I OT or what?
Scott Henderson says
Gotcha beat OSD. I just steal a quick glance at the Missus and that butters my biscuit, no driving required.
I'm Dee Dee says
That’s almost worth it …
The longer I was in Scio the less I was able to observe, you get closed off or rather want to close off from everything. I thankfully have gotten back the observations and senses I once had without having to go OT anything.
An OT 3 LC once told me that one looses these abilities and if you don’t go up the bridge they fade away. Hell they do if you stay in.
The OTs I had been around OMG some of them drove me crazy. One was all high and mighty but was all full of BS. It is more a personality thing than OT ability. Once an a’hole always an a’hole. Appearances and attitudes did not change once they reached the OT levels especially OT VIII, made them almost unbearable in some cases (and most definitely CASE).
I dated an OT5 for about 6 months (if that), I realized his perceptions and awareness was not there at all; I had better perceptions and awareness than he did and I only got as far as ARC SW (lucky me). Then it took 5 years to get this guy to stop stalking me (he would show up at my work and walk by my house). Yeah I really wanted to go up the bridge after that, NOT. It opened my eyes for sure; but others gave excuses for it that being at such and such level made them act out there case more or give them patience to get through there levels. BS is what I say, getting up to those levels should have shed off those things and made a person more able and a better person not worse. At this point not sure if the nice ones even made it well; they have become sick, died of cancer, or financial ruin.
And now these OTs get to redo the bottom of the bridge, how fun for them. I couldn’t even get onto my grades because the purif and objectives all had to be redone by everyone. I said ain’t redoing them, did them once and that was enough. It was bad enough we were forced to buy all the basic books, not to mention all the other books (which by the way if you know how to get rid of the books let me know, they are packed away in my shed taking up space).
Put them out with the trash.
Laughter! Seems simple enough. It’s where they belong, after all.
if you rip the covers off you can recycle them. 🙂 It took me hours. It was great.
I Yawnalot says
Wow, really sounds like “you paid your money and rolled the dice” with those guys. Weird thing is during the 80s the majority of Scios I knew where decent, friendly, likable types. Then it was like a faucet was turned on. Money = OT status and assholes began appearing out of the woodwork with the worst manners I’ve ever seen coupled with the PR hyped arrogance of “demigods of grandeur.” The SO blossomed into a Hitler Youth program and more bullshit to fertilize a market garden for 100 years oozed from every Scienological pore – yes, you were clever to get the hell out of Dodge.
I’ve been to Flag very recently and all the people I met and all the staff and what-not, everyone was really friendly and nice. The staff are truly dedicated to helping and they are so happy to see you and want you to do well.
They’re not assholes on the surface.
But then when you step back and LOOK.. when suddenly your world shifts and you’re just OUT and covered with goo like you’ve just been born…
you start seeing allllll the lies, the delusions, the prejudice, arrogance, know-best, fixed viewpoints, the manipulations,
They’re f*cked beyond belief and don’t even have a clue about it, for the most part.
If I were go to back and tell them what I know, their eyes would glaze over and they’d no longer see me. They’d slip me into the crazy slot and tsk tsk mourn the loss as someone off the rails.
so many nice people there.
Secretfornow, good comment. The staff at Flag were love bombing you. They have so few public to service that anyone who comes in now has to be fawned over and held onto cuz they can’t afford more defections. The staff IMHO are out of valence and in a fakey, put on high tone level. I imagine their real tone level is one of desperation and apathy and despair.
Alex De Valera says
“I deeply appreciate the restoration of the tech by the RTC and COB” Well, if the old man came back from target two, the first thing he would do would be to kick the “kid” in the arse so hard and with such Ton 40 that he would end somewhere around the Van Allen belt, having discarded his own body as as impediment to find his real condition and would wander for a billion years doing steps A to E.
Mike Wynski says
Alex, “The Old” man is dead. He was criminally insane at best. He promoted another criminal, DM, into a couple of the highest positions. “Target Two” doesn’t exist. You cannot ruin a “tech” that doesn’t work in the first place.
I Yawnalot says
Are you a cointelpro agent? You sure use their playbook.
If anyone doesn’t know what cointelpro means – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
It’ll rattle the rafters of many a ‘keyboard ivory tower warrior’ to know what really goes on in the real world.
Mike Wynski says
I’m sorry Yawn. I forgot that anyone telling the truth about the psycho El Con gets you upset. Well, you SHOULD seek professional help to recover from the damage to your mind that you suffered in scamology.
p.s. – watch out for those CIA agents spying on you at home. 😉
I’m a COINTELPROstitute, and proud of it, Yawn. But we’re understanding. Letting go of Hubbard is the last step on the Bridge To Real Total Freedom, and it’s a tough one to take. Someday…
Old Surfer Dude says
Really, Alex? Only a billion years of wandering?? Shouldn’t it be a trillion years??? Or are you just going soft on me????
If the old man comes back I doubt that he would have the conscious awareness to remember he was Hubbard.
All sages I have studied from say the next birth is determined by the state of consciousness and thoughts when the being leaves the body.
L Ron Hubbard was in Looney Land at the end. His death was not a conscious death. He was haunted by his own deeds and warring with BTs.
The savior of this sector was insane at the end of life.
But if he did come back and originated in session that he was LRH in previous life, they’d probably off load him as a loon.
And if he continued with “I am Hubbard”, they’d have the OSA goons after him.
Now that sounds more to the truth if he did have a memory. Hunted down like a dog according to his own para military writings.
Do you think Dave would ever let anyone else take over?
Hubbard would be crushed. And that would be a rational outcome for him according to his own actions against others.
And that would be Karma.
You know what I was thinking? It would be really cool if someone would write a book about Hubbards last days, or years, what he was doing, talking about, what his daily life was like, how much he believed in his own tech. We’ve got books about the beginnings of Scientology, about what went on during most of the years, how it devolved, but the end times of LRH really remain kind of sketchy. The problem is, nobody who was with him at the ranch where he spent his last years is around to write it anymore… I don’t think so anyway. ?
Mike Wynski says
T.j. his closest friend during the last few years is out and around. That is how we know that he was a raving lunatic during the last few years.
Ya know, the guy El Con wanted to build an emeter that would electrocute Hubbard so he could be rid of his BT’s?
Catherine Chavanne I would believe, because both she and her success story have some semblance of the real truth to them. But, the second person B.F. is the perfect candidate for “re-objectives”. All it boils down to Sea Org members lying to the public about why the public are not in the Sea Org to get money out of them. This becomes clear to anyone reading B.F.’s written success that is able to separate between true and false. That is why I do not any longer go to this church. If I need auditing I will ask someone else, somewhere else that can be trusted. 🙂
The second woman thanks her late husband. Sounds like another life insurance policy was vacuumed up. Hope she or her children don’t need that money.
Old Surfer Dude says
Eileen, why would they need money? Can’t they just mock up 100 dollar bills? If they can’t, that proves Scientology is a scam….
You know, that could be very well true about the life insurance policy. That might be why she thanked her late husband for making it possible for her – he died. I hope there’s some left over, if the IAS regges didn’t blood suck it out of her on the $hip.
It could be that the end product of Going Up The Bridge is an auditing junkie. Doesn’t matter if it doesn’t make sense, or if it violates the underlying theory of the Gradation Chart. Any auditing is better than no auditing to the junkie. It seems participating in the ritual has become more important than the gain produced by it.
I say this with tongue-in-cheek, but I do think there is some validity. I knew an OTVIII, Ls completion, who re-did their Ls and then CSW’d the Snr C/S TO DO THEM AGAIN a few years later. Ls auditing must be like God’s Stash to an OTVIII.
The lengths they will go to, to not live life.
Old Surfer Dude says
“The lengths they will go to, to not live life.” Wow! Now that’s profound (and no, that’s not a professional finding something). You’re right, statpush. They are missing out on the joy of living. And they’re going to great lengths to do so.
Good point statpush.auditing junky,
I am an ot 8 (with no ot abilities whatsoever)and have spoken with about 400 ot8’s over the years.All the talk about “ot abilities” is at the bottom of the bridge.Oaties only talk when they were in session,when they will go in session next,how they had to wait for session,Quite boring actually.
They hardly ever talk about their family,the work they do or any active volunteer activities that would benefit anybody except the money that was extracted from them by the reg.They have substituted ife for scientology.Like a junky.
As you can see on last week’s ot committee photo they are not very much into fitness either.That is why I estimate the lifespan of an ot 8 is about 3 years less than average with the same demographics.
As a group though 80% have a higher iq and work attitude than average since it is no small feat to come up with $400.000.About 20% gotten the 400.000 from someone else or just scammed it.Because they were already smarter to begin with this now proves to the people in Columbus org that ot powers work because they are smarter than the people who did not have the good fortune to go to the friendliest place on earth”
If you follow both groups over the years on OT 7 there is hardly a change in character that I could observe except that they seem to look more worried as the years on ot 7 roll on.And get fatter at a rate of say 6 pounds a year since all the do after work is sit and chase space cooties.
Well, if MIscavige is noticing, then what LRH told Sarge about LRH failing would ring true to Miscavige.
The only on policy thing to do is Tech Downgrades policy, which says inform the person who is NOT demonstrating their supposed ability that they haven’t made it yet, and they have to do whatever it was they attested to (falsey) again.
Miscavige is just doing Tech Downgrades on them. Telling them they haven’t made it.
And in fact they haven’t.
And Hubbard never made it either.
So the only thing to keep the show going is make people redo things until they more perfect pretend they have the OT supernatural abilities, which is a futile never ending Sisyphus task (and never holding onto their top position, but always falling to the bottom).
Miscavige may have looked up Sisyphus on Wikipedia and realized the part of Science of Survival book about how theta gets whipped but then regroups and tries again, that this must also apply to attaining OT.
If the Scientologists aren’t OTs yet, then redo the Bridge, simple as that.
I am an ot 8 (with no ot abilities whatsoever
This makes me so happy. I was on VII and I can’t do a damn thing! 🙂 🙂
shoe tying is beyond me.
Mike Wynski says
Come on Mike there people (OT VIIIs) aren’t even smart enough to realize that they didn’t get their memory back like El Con promised. Self Deluded fools.
I remember El Con stated something like, “The lowest ability there is, is the confront of evil”. I now realize that scamology is designed to take away even that small ability. It is a practice that makes people LESS able.