Our friend and scientology nemesis, journalist, author and podcaster John Sweeney, joins us this week.
John was for many years a correspondent for the original TV investigative magazine show, Panorama. He did a program about scientology for Panorama in 2007, where I was one of the “handlers” on behalf of scientology. It was a catalyst for me leaving — I was in London defending scientology and Miscavige from the “chaos merchants” at the BBC. After I had left, I did a second Panorama show with John explaining some of the things that had happened in that first program. We had a lot to talk about then and now about scientology’s tactics with the media.
John subsequently wrote a book about scientology — The Church of Fear, a fascinating read (he has authored a dozen books). John has reported from North Korea, covered the Russian Mafia, the war in Chechnya and Serbia, been detained by the Pakistani secret police and much more. So when he compares his experiences to dealing with scientology, it comes from a perspective that few others have.
Today he has been in the news again for his podcast Hunting Ghislaine which was a huge hit and is now being made into a TV series.
John is funny and engaging man. After being on opposite sides of the fence, we have become good friends. He is someone I always enjoy having a chat with. I am sure you will enjoy this conversation as much as we did.
You can follow John on Twitter at @JohnSweeneyroar
( I cannot find an embeddable copy on YouTube but the link above will work). In this program you will see me looking gaunt and gray — I had been taken out of The Hole to “help” Tommy Davis stop the show from airing.
The Secrets of Scientology — this is the second show when I worked with him to tell the behind the scenes story.
The Church of Fear — John’s excellent book on his experiences with scientology.
Hunting Ghislaine — John’s new podcast
Full audio of the Parking Lot Incident
The Sheriff’s report from the incident. As you can read, they conclude I was followed and confronted by them and that there was “incidental contact” as I was trying to leave that caused the graze on her arm.
For further information and documentation, you can read my earlier blog post here
and many other refutations of the lies told about this incident at Jeffrey Augustine’s blog (Exposed: The Endless Lies of Scientology Operatives Taryn Teutsch & Cathy Bernardini), as well as Stefani Hutchison’s blog (Taryn Teutsch – A Challenge).
The letter from my ex-wife telling me to “Fuck Off.”
My daughter claiming my ex-wife suffered “permanent damage” (as part of her “Happy Valentine’s Day message?)
The “Justice4Mom” website that is ostensibly done by my daughter (in fact an OSA operation) that is used to smear me based on the false narrative they have created of the “incident” at the doctor’s office — that I was the aggressor and that I deliberately assaulted my ex-wife.
Court decisions concerning scientology.
John mentions two of these in 1984. Look for Justice Latey in the UK and Judge Breckenridge in the US in this list compiled on Jeffrey Augustine’s blog.
This was an amazing episode of the podcast. John has a great sence of humor you and Leah both added alot to that. John seems like such a genuinely kind person. It is joce tat you both reconciled after your tike in the cult. I found it also nice that you invited him to your wedding Happy late anniversary to you and Christie by the way. It shows how much you have grown since leaving. It’s also clear that you both are good friends now and that you can put the past behind you.
I’m coming to this blog post after listening to the recent podcast episode you did with Sarah Mole. It was interesting to hear both Sarah and John explain their points of views and it was also nice to hear your point of view as well. John is truly humorous and got me laughing a lot throughout this episode it’s nice that you guys are friends now after everything that transpired between you two when you were in Scientology.
I love it when you have John Sweeney on! Fantastic podcast!!
What did your ex wife mean by slammed your ethics in? is that church lingo? I am glad you are not in the cult anymore. I hope one day your children will get out. You seem like a truly decent man and deserve all the world can give you.
I watched John Sweeney’s Panorama episode several years ago and have to say honestly I was scared of you, Mike. I couldn’t believe it initially when I heard you voicing your (absolutely founded) criticism about Scientology. You have given a great example of the results of brainwash. Now I have to say I am a great fan of you, Leah (and the Scientology: Fair Game Podcast) as well as all the others who do not stop telling the truth despite the problems you and they are facing from the ‘church’. My utmost respect to you all.
I have been listening to all of your podcasts and have really been enjoying them. I am curious if there is any transcripts of your episodes? I am hearing impaired and unfortunately accents can sometimes be hard for me to follow, and this episode with John was particularly hard for me. I got some of it but I feel as I have missed much more. Keep up the great work!
I hadn’t seen “Scientology and Me” and I looked it up. Not only does the BBC seem to be ok with John yelling at Tommy Davis – they seem to be quite proud of that because the image on IMBD advertising the show is John with his mouth wide open and an angry look on his face (he is clearly shouting) 🤣
Great episode, thank you Leah and Mike and John. As others have commented, aside from the apparent craziness and almost comical aspect to the so-called Church’s actions, and the multiple contradictions as their leaders seek to suppress so many of their former members and non-member critics, there is something profoundly sad and distressing about whole families engaging in this abuse of a parent whose ‘crime’ is to leave and speak freely about his experience.
I tried to use the link you provided for this podcast. I may have missed it, but I could not find any volume control. Most people should be able to control the volume in another way. But if anyone has a problem because they are unable to adjust the volume, the following link will start the same prodcast but it will contain a button to control the volume.
http://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-scientology-fair-game-68514402
As far as Mike Rinder goes, it seems to me the Universe has provided us all with a very clear lesson in the cause and effects of the laws of Karma.
If you consider Mike’s previous wife and his current wife, the laws of Karma just could not be more clear. Of course that is just my own opinion. But it seems so abundantly clear to me. Mike got precisely what he deserved.
Moreover, I am pretty certain the laws of Karma are not yet finished with Mike Rinder and this horrid criminal organization set up as a for-profit business masquerading as a religion.
Every once in a while, I watch parts of the two Panorama episodes. I have to say, Mike, you look younger now, out of Scientology, than you did 13 years ago in it. It never fails to amaze me.
As for your daughter’s message, it’s bad enough that she would use yet another celebration to attack you, but what struck me is that she doesn’t smile at all, not even in the “happy” part of it. It’s quite sad.
John has such funny stories. His Fear book is hilarious, so glad he never bought Scientology’s crap.
Sara Mole telling him he would be a tethered lamb and draw out Scientology’s evil nature, so true.
What ever happened to Uli Hesse, does she still work for BBC also?
Back then, Uli did a lot drumming up people to provide content and persons to substantiate so much.
So many other people, for decades helping get content to media, culminated in that first BBC show.
Such a great podcast, Mike gives some great new info. Leah gives her side of some key moments.
John gets on a roll as the podcast goes on.
Really great episode.
Very good podcast. I wondered if $ci had stopped fair gaming John?
This was a brutal listen. The only thing funny about it to me was when Sweeney was talking about authorities in Pakistan and in Egypt, letting him go and recognizing him as a journalist because of his screaming incident with Tommy Davis. Otherwise, I don’t think there was anything funny about it. John has it exactly right when he talked of this being one of the darkest groups in existence (if not THE darkest group).
This is a group that TAKE PRIDE – TAKES PRIDE! – in turning a family member against another – that TAKES PRIDE in shutting down (with lies) the love a son has for his mother and denying himself that love (yes, my son) and then in turn denying himself any kind of love for the rest of his family.
That is brainwashing. But Sweeney explained this phenomenon much better than I.
Shame on our gov’t officials that should actually be helping to protect citizens of this country from the abuses inflicted by this vile group.
I agree. Shame on our government for basically aiding and abetting COS. They do so not only by failing to seriously investigating what seems clear are human and civil rights abuses but also by the shady way the “church” got its tax free exempt status which frees up the 10k a week that they pay people to harass their critics (some for as long as nearly a quarter of a century!)
I saw the former head of security at the place near Hemet say that when people tried to escape from there he physically chased them down (off of COS property so the “church” shouldn’t be able to claim that is their private business) it was like THREE HUNDRED people!! I thought he was going to say a dozen or something like that. I mean – my God!!!
Our government has recently been criticizing the Chinese government for holding Uighurs against their will in re-education camps. Explain to me what the difference is between that and church members held in what is in essence a prison because I don’t see much of a difference.
Yea. And that’s just ONE abuse. A felony crime.
Then there’s a hundred more egregious crimes against humanity.
Yes! There is soo much COS does that is not only wildly immoral and unethical but probably illegal that it’s hard to even scratch the surface without writing something that resembles Homer’s Iliad (an epic novel).
I am new to this blog – I commented on some of your earlier posts Mary which I am not sure you have seen.
The series with Mike and Leah is now on Netflix so TONS of people are watching it!! Especially during the pandemic where people are watching tv more – like how most Americans saw “Tiger King”…your story and the story of all those who COS has and is abusing – that information is going far and wide now.
I think lots and lots of people all over the country were crying watching you talk to Mike and Leah about what you have been through- like when you mentioned how much money you spent trying to hang on to your family and Mike started crying- I know I lost it and started bawling.
Anyone who has been abused by someone in power and the added dynamic of not being believed – totally gets it.
I also recently saw a German documentary about COS and it discussed that their ultimate goal is basically to supplant our government and have a world where only “clears” could procreate.
I find it odd that the Southern Poverty Law Center ( I greatly respect them)) tracks groups that are a threat to our society like the KKK and other white power type groups but somehow because COS is a “church” then they are magically immune from scrutiny? By that logic you, me , Mike and Leah could form our own church and start doing whatever we wanted to people and if anyone asks questions we just scream “religious persecution!” to shut them up.
I also think COS is a racist organization. I saw a glimpse of one of the list of auditing questions and it asks if you have had sex with an animal..another question is if you have had sex with someone of another race. So…in the opinion of COS they view interracial relationships on the same level as beastiality . How is that not extremely racist?
It made me sick on this blog when it was reported that the Southern Baptist Florida Congressman criticized Tampa Bay Times articles that were negative about Scientology. These Southern Baptists are very sensitive to the protection of religion. They even extend their fear to Scientology because they do not want even a question about the cult they are in. We then get the government in total fear to remove Scientology because the mainstream religions defend it to protect themselves from scrutiny.
Well, that is not true for all of them. Willy Rice is the pastor of the largest Southern Baptist church in Clearwater and he is an outspoken and unabashed critic of scientology and personal friend to me.
Willy Rice is the exception. He is in a metropolitan area and is more educated and more diverse. I read his comments on the blog and actually thought about calling him. The problem with Southern Baptists is that they have no centralized authority like Catholics have the Pope. Therefore, each church sets its own policies. The recent massacre in Georgia was done by a Southern Baptist. Of course, his church threw him out. However, their statements were very cult like. I live in a rural area and I personally had my fill of Southern Baptists. The local church goes up and down depending on the attitudes of the pastor. I have monitored them and they are basically Occult. This is OK. However, we have had many uncontrolled youth who did not buy into the religion and committed crimes.
Well, my best friend used to be a Southern Baptist and I remember her saying something about a Southern Baptist “Conference “ which sounded like it was some kind of governing body. So maybe contacting them and asking them to condemn COS might be useful.
Full disclosure, I am agnostic….but I do recognize Southern Baptists as a religion. They don’t do things like require parishioners to pay thousands of dollars up front to attend religious functions, they don’t tell their members to disown non-Baptist family members. If anything I think they do the opposite of those things generally like telling parishioners that if their loved ones aren’t believers they need to witness to them (so connect with them MORE not less).
I think a lot of young people are developing codes of conduct for themselves outside of any church dogma which is somewhat a new concept. Back in the 50s for instance when COS started I think society expected church attendance of most people but with church attendance falling especially amongst the younger generations they are establishing their own codes of ethics which isn’t to say they are immoral. It’s like “How should we behave?” and they are thinking for themselves rather than doing it because some religious authority tells them to. Like don’t kill because I can see for myself it’s wrong to do so not because God told me not to.
I think this can actually lead to a much better society in the long run.
I was curious and checked and actually the Southern Poverty Law Center does list some churches as hate groups – mostly “Christian Identity” churches which are basically white power groups with some bibles thrown in.
The Southern Poverty Law Center does mention SOC in just one article mostly about its unholy alliance with Nation of Islam which is racist in that it is well known to be a black power group (espouses black supremacy). COS is not listed though as the other groups that are considered a threat to our society.
I think COS qualifies for this list actually on a few counts – one of which is not recognizing the laws of our land by thinking that is lawful for them to have their own jails (which is what the “hole” is basically). Besides racist groups the Southern Poverty Law Center lists domestic terrorists like Montana Freemen etc who don’t recognize our government. I am aware of only one class of groups that arecallowed to basically have their own sovereign government inside the US including a justice system and jails – and those are Native American Tribes. Gold Base is not on tribal land to my knowledge so the laws of California apply there – like laws against assault and false imprisonment.
I think Willy needs to give a few more sermons about Scientology and get the current Mayor of Clearwater up from the pews as I believe he attends Cavalry on to the stage next to him so he can hear a little better. Maybe have a test at the end to make sure it’s gone in.
I thought that man ‘got it’, but recent events give me grave cause for concern. They need three votes out of five and even with Aaron sitting next to the legendary WBM (and we all know that’s an ‘if’ as he still has to win an election) two isn’t enough if the other council members are going to roll over and accept the status quo.
Mary: It is time to take this to the US Government. Go speak to publically in Washington.
R Kelly was taken down by MOM’S. He paid off officials for 20 years. He is finally locked up because officials, government, cops etc. would do nothing about it.
Anyone up for a picket at the White House?
Remember, SOMETHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT Scientology.
Ok, when I replied to you earlier Mary I hadn’t actually listened to the most recent podcast yet. I listened to it just now.
A few things- some people are saying it was funny..you say it wasn’t. I think it’s one of those things where if you don’t laugh you’ll cry. I think they are trying to bring some levity to a really evil situation just so they don’t go insane. Some of the things COS does are just so ridiculous too that you kind of can’t help but laugh – but I think it’s kind of nervous laughter.
COS’ tactics – monitoring people, hidden microphones, having spies who even spy on the other spies, leveraging families against people, holding people against their will, banishing people go undesirable parts of the world – that’s the kind of things the KGB does. No joke – those are all Russian KGB standard operating procedures.
That COS tries to hide behind this idea that a basic American tenant is religious freedom is insulting. Yes- religious freedom is an American value ..but COS is PRIMARILY a business and all the other very UNAmerican things that COS does like using KGB tactics against its members just like the USSR used against its citizens is what people should be paying attention to. I mean is it just me or do people not see the analogies between the razor wire and all the cameras and guards at Gold base and the Berlin Wall!!
What’s that saying- people that don’t understand history are doomed to repeat it?
It’s actually extremely ironic that COS compares its critics to Nazis because if anyone is like Nazis it’s COS. It’s actually kind of worrisome because the Nazis didn’t immediately come to power and for awhile in Germany before WWII they were just thought of as sort of a nutty group that didn’t amount to much …
Yes, I think laughing is a good thing, therapeutic even. Sometimes I’m just not there when it concerns the church of scientology and david miscavige – the leader who not only physically but emotionally and mentally beats people. I still can’t laugh when a joke is made about it but don’t get me wrong, I think someone who can, and that someone is one of its victim, then that person is healed or healing from it.
I can laugh at how insane the members of the church of scientology sound (and truly are) who accosted Mike in the parking lot. But it was interesting to hear John Sweeney talk about how it made him feel badly for Mike, how this church had brainwashed his own daughter and brother and got them to participate in such a heinous act. The church of scientology destroys love.
This is what the church of scientology does and it’s really not funny when one steps back and thinks how IT gets away with it. It’s stunning.
I totally get it. You are clearly still suffering missing your son. It’s awful that you are going through that. As are many other families torn apart by COS. I have heard it said many times that no legitimate church should seek to separate families. Real churches seek to bring families together and keep them together. That disconnection is part of “church” dogma should tell people all they need to know right there about the groups legitimacy as a religion. The KGB isn’t a religion and neither is COS.
That situation where Mike’s family is screaming at him when it was they who disconnected from him , not the other way around, also speaks volumes about COS because they orchestrated that attack.
Take solace that the tide of public opinion is turning against COS and people like you and Mike have been and are instrumental in that.
Mike saw the light after doing the “church’s” bidding for a really long time …so I think there is hope that your son may break away from them someday. If Mike , who was one of COS’ most vocal supporters , can have a change of heart then so can your son.
That is definitely one of the top 5 of you & Leah’s podcast. It was very informative, insightful and super funny.
Scientology is worse than North Korea…that says something.
I am glad your on this side of the smart*as club, Mike, you are definitely an asset to the world when you get to be you. I hope you get your beer soon.
I’ve never been married and so I’m worried that my opinion about Mike’s divorce can easily be criticized because I really have no idea what is involved in being married for many years and raising children for many years.
But after having watched and listened to many of the videos that have been posted about Mike and his first wife – especially about the craziness in the doctor’s parking lot – I have come to the opinion that Mike Rinder got the very best reward he may ever get when his first wife told him she was going to divorce him and then divorced him.
I would think that divorce could have easily been one of the very best things that ever happened to Mike and if you spend any time reading about Mike’s current wife, it seems impossible to imagine how any man could be happier to have divorced his first wife and then married his second wife.
Mike’s current wife (Christie) appears to be a real angel and it’s just my uninformed opinion. But I think she is just about the best thing that ever happened to Mike (followed closely by the birth of his sons).
Congratulations Mike. It’s just my opinion. But I believe the Universe has rewarded you in exactly the way you deserve.
Great interview with honest people. John Sweeney is totally cool. I love the British accent. Scientology is worse than North Korea so he said and I believe it.
It was great to listen to John Leah and you together. Really enjoyable and fun.
It is one of the episodes where I laughed the most. May you all be blessed.
Mike, it’s unfortunate your daughter still refuses to see what life is like outside of Scientology. Her message is completely the opposite of what she claims it’s for justice for mom…they choose to be under clear mind control. I will continue to pray for them to find peace with you and the rest of your family
Mike, John is one of the most forward thinking journalists. So good to see him get together with you and Leah. I’ll be listening.
I really enjoy knowing that you and John Sweeney are now friends. It is just good.
I just finished all of the Hunting Ghislaine podcast.
Reminds me of an old radio show mystery style but it’s not fiction.
Thanks for having John on -~ he’s become a friend of many scientology watchers and for good reason.
He cares about all of our right – to know the truth. Honorable guy.
He does also have a Utube channel with clips for more entertainment.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCigjyWFhixH1cLSugeJbX8w
Couple things – I am so glad Ms. Maxwell is going to have her feet held to the fire. Her hands are NOT clean on all the abuses!!
I am a New Mexico resident and many of the girls were abused at Epstein’s estate here and what is especially infuriating is our state government basically facilitated the abuse. It’s been alleged that Epstein contacted state officials to register as a sex offender as he was required to do and NM officials told him he didn’t need to. WTF??
Our government needs to start being held responsible for how they look the other way when abuses are happening. What happened here isn’t acceptable just as it’s unacceptable that government agencies like the IRS is failing to act with the COS.
The other comment I want to make is that if anyone doubts wether Mike Rinder spent a long period of time in the hole right before that interview in London …look at the images of him during that interaction where he was being questioned about being hit by Miscavage and then look at ALL other media with Mike in it . In all other images he basically looks healthy- normal weight, normal skin color etc. Look at him in London and he LOOKS like he just came out of a long stretch in the hole….his skin looks so pasty it looks practically grey (like he hasn’t seen the sun in a long time) , his face is gaunt, he has very dark circles under his eyes …..
I can’t wait.
Reviewing the video John Sweeney made for the BBC it’s interesting to see Tommy Davis doing and saying exactly what Miscavige wanted – to voluntarily turn everything just into a brawl.
Surely if you Mike and Herber had been allowed to handle the situation, things would have turned out as best they could. But it wasn’t what DM wanted.
Tommy’ is now out of the SO, then he certainly got a bad burn too.
Hello LMR,
No need to worry about Tommy Boy. After all, he is one of the baddest SOBs around.
In case you don’t remember, I am trying to make a joke because I recall Tommy Davis crowing about how Sea Org members are just the baddest SOBs on the planet.
But I have always believed that THE TWERP would have not been very happy with Tommy Boy after he had such a direct hand in causing Leah to leave the cult and that started off the entire “Mike & Leah” partnership which was one of the biggest disasters the cult has ever suffered. Yippee!!!
No one seems to know exactly what happened between THE TWERP and Tommy Boy. But seeing how Tommy’s mother is one of the founding members (so to speak) of the Celebrity Slaves, I had always thought the result would not be much fun for Tommy Boy.
P.S. I am also trying to make fun of Tommy by using the name of the great Chris Farley movie, “Tommy Boy”.
I hope you will forgive me for trying to explain all my weak attempts at humor to you. But I know you are from a different culture and English is not your mother tongue. But I admire you very much because you have come to a different culture and learned a different language and you have done a fantastic job at that. You must be an amazing man and I say that with true admiration.
Best wishes to you, LMR!
Mr Skyler,
Thanks so much. I grab your humor don’t worry. In today’s episode Mike explained what happened with Tommy.
As for the English language thank you (but I admit that I still have to help myself with dictionaries etc) and it is still always a desire to improve and here I combine this with following a fundamental blog about the cult.
You may not know it but Italy (at least until recently) is one of the few places where scn has suffered less than other countries when it comes to exposing its shady deals.
The governments of France, Germany, Belgium, etc., have taken strong positions declaring it a danger.
And to top it off, surely you must be an amazing person too.
My yardstick for knowing if I am like this is my family: all women including two granddaughters. And it’s never forever Lol.
I guess you were there at the beginning of that interview. 😀
Is he going to be screaming like he did in the movie? (just kidding).
And the answer is yes.
That’s OK. I’ll keep my earplugs handy.
Outstanding post today, Mike. I love John Sweeney. Is he on your podcast yet?
I listen to the episodes daily and just love what you and Leah Remini are doing.
There is so much there that I don’t know yet if you have had him on.
I hope you do if he has not.
You are all heros to humanity.
Shouting the abuses and crimes of Scientology Every.Single.Day
and exposing the crimes and con of L Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige.
You guys are dope (a slang term my son uses and it means you are great). lol
It will drop tonight at midnight EDT
Mike – That is so awesome. Thank you.
I will share it with all of my SP friends and family.
Hello Stan, this may not be any of my business. But I liked your post and I hope you won’t mind if I recommend one of the best podcasts to you.
Last week, Mike & Leah spoke with Yashar Ali. I had never before heard about him. But I thought that was just one of the best podcasts ever so far and if you haven’t yet heard it, I’d like to say that while you’re waiting for the John Sweeney podcast to become available, you might really enjoy the Yashar Ali podcast.
Yashar has managed to formulate some unique and extremely decisive attitudes towards this cult and IMHO, he is truly worth listening to. The man is a giant on the Internet.
Thank you Skyler. Don’t worry about me, I won’t miss any of the podcasts. It has become part of my day. I can’t wait to hear that one.
Instead of listening to the propapaganda news media feeding lies and stirring trouble to divide the people, I listed to Mike and Leah whereever I can find them.
They are everywhere. A&E, Netflix, Youtube, Mike’s blog, Leah’s social media and I Heart Radio. Facebook and Instagram too. It really is exciting to see how much is being done about the criminal organization disguised as a religion, Scientology.
So far, Mike and Leah have done extremly excellent interviews with so many ex members and others and that should help in getting the United States Government to yank that tax exempt status for eternity.